Cooldown decreasing abilities - let's bring the balance

[Aurandilaz]

cooldown reducers from classes B and C affecting classes X Y Z do not have same outcome as cooldown reducer from class S affecting classes E F G
you cannot balance in a vacuum, especially when this thread is thinly veiled "buff order, nerf destro" attempt nr 83121 - which is absurd given how current endgame balance already favours COMPETENT order warbands.
buffing Order further would just be beyond absurd at this point, which is however not unrealistic considering we have seen balance changes like "dps dok is overperforming in ranked, lets nuke dps rp/zealot from warbands"-lmao tier balancing before.

While I agree that AM could use maybe a CD reducer of their own for their own needs, or a limited WH buff that could affect their 1 friendly target, there is the high risk of all those buffs to the undesired/weak classes then ending with buffing the potential of BWs and Slayers even higher.
Order suffers from internal balance problems, Destro has more spread out "top picks" - but balance as general is now stacked in orders favour due to removal of morale advantage from Destro, but Order retaining their dmg and healing advantages, and even gaining more buffs/debuffs like IB AP battery for Slayers or SW morale drain (not all Destro has pumps).

[Charon]

cooldown reducers from classes B and C affecting classes X Y Z do not have same outcome as cooldown reducer from class S affecting classes E F G

So destro does not benefit from 2 stackable ready to use cooldown reducers on 2 meta classes - interesting.......... funny but interesting
I see a bit contradiction here if your really does not use them so why bothering to defend them so eagerly even ... In fact i know how beneficial this skill is and i don't want removal of WAAGH and MChD (just move it to BG which is much better target) even i don't know why Aza gave it to destro in first place.

when this thread is thinly veiled "buff order, nerf destro" attempt nr 83121

you can believe me or not but its not - i just want to address disproportion that is clearly visible taking into considderation benefits for sm/bo, possibly for bg, and other classes of their realms. I If you dont see here disproportion it may create rather questions about your motives.

which is absurd given how current endgame balance already favours COMPETENT order warbands.

I wonder who do you want KICK here (my guild ???)....Are you still TUP member ? - I like watching Xerg streams some times when you are playing order and definitely you perform better at destro side - Did i touched a soft spot of your meta there, tell me pls ....

[Mergrim]

So destro does not benefit from 2 stackable ready to use cooldown reducers on 2 meta classes - interesting.......... funny but interesting
I see a bit contradiction here if your really does not use them so why bothering to defend them so eagerly even ... In fact i know how beneficial this skill is and i don't want removal of WAAGH and MChD (just move it to BG which is much better target) even i don't know why Aza gave it to destro in first place.

Ofc they benefit but less then order. Meta for destro are now mara and melle squig, not choppa.
If you serious want true meta go 8sm 8sw with barrage spam and 8am to spam energy of vaul.

This thread should be closed when you write BO is best tank in game. SM>BO.
Everyone got diffrent vision of game. Best not listen ppl who play just 1 side.

[teiloh]

Lion's Fury path of hunter combine it with Lionheart tactic and WW from sm and you got 20ap spirit dmg spam skill. Only brutal assault sw is more broken in single target melle.

What? Lion's Fury is not that good. MSH can chain AOE channel back to back to back if they have a CD reducer.

If you serious want true meta go 8sm 8sw with barrage spam and 8am to spam energy of vaul.

Somehow I don't think they will do nearly as much damage as 8 SH 8 BO 8 Sham

Just double down on morale tactics, get M4 almost instant, EZ

SW barrage will be CD decreased anyway.

[Gurf]

The main problem with adding extra skill to other class is that the Order classes got more benefit from reduce cd.
For example:
-Slayer can spam ID.
-SW can spam Barrage in skrimish, Fastering Arrow in scout, Brutal Assault in assault spec:p
-WL can spam Lion fury

np to add extra reduce cd skill to other order class if you make some skills not affected by cd modification abilites like mara Thunderous blow or ST dok/wp heal.

Well yes this is exactly the problem and shows how potentially powerful they can be, the cooldown decreaser can turn a class which on its own is balanced into something verging on OP, because the most powerful abilities have longer cooldowns by definition. Which is exactly the same on Destro, for example right now a MSH can top the damage charts easily because of cooldown decreasers their Big Bouncin is on a 3 second cooldown, turning a strong class into OP territory.

Its an effective massive boost to all classes eg Mara disorient and interrupt halving their cooldown so they can be applied twice as much and most of their main aoe ablities cooldown halved. Destro healers have their cleanse without cooldown so it can be spammed. Most classes aoe is on 10 second cooldown so by removing 5 seconds you are effectively doubling its uptime.

At the start the abilities cooldowns were worked out with formulae due to how powerful the ability is and cost etc, to just add in an extra cooldown decreaser to one side only is obviously throwing this all completely out of balance. At the moment on order Whispering Winds is probably the way it should be on both sides, ie it is an ability which is unreliable and can be parried/blocked SM cc'd etc, so it takes communication and team work to align your abilities with it. While Destro can run around spamming theirs reliably with barely any teamwork or communication needed at all

[Charon]

The main problem with adding extra skill to other class is that the Order classes got more benefit from reduce cd.
For example:
-Slayer can spam ID.
-SW can spam Barrage in skrimish, Fastering Arrow in scout, Brutal Assault in assault spec:p
-WL can spam Lion fury

np to add extra reduce cd skill to other order class if you make some skills not affected by cd modification abilites like mara Thunderous blow or ST dok/wp heal.

Well yes this is exactly the problem and shows how potentially powerful they can be, the cooldown decreaser can turn a class which on its own is balanced into something verging on OP, because the most powerful abilities have longer cooldowns by definition. Which is exactly the same on Destro, for example right now a MSH can top the damage charts easily because of cooldown decreasers their Big Bouncin is on a 3 second cooldown, turning a strong class into OP territory.

Its an effective massive boost to all classes eg Mara disorient and interrupt halving their cooldown so they can be applied twice as much and most of their main aoe ablities cooldown halved. Destro healers have their cleanse without cooldown so it can be spammed. Most classes aoe is on 10 second cooldown so by removing 5 seconds you are effectively doubling its uptime.

At the start the abilities cooldowns were worked out with formulae due to how powerful the ability is and cost etc, to just add in an extra cooldown decreaser to one side only is obviously throwing this all completely out of balance. At the moment on order Whispering Winds is probably the way it should be on both sides, ie it is an ability which is unreliable and can be parried/blocked SM cc'd etc, so it takes communication and team work to align your abilities with it. While Destro can run around spamming theirs reliably with barely any teamwork or communication needed at all

THX for that - al last comment based of merit

can i ask some destro players to analyse how moving cooldown reduction like mchd from BO to bg mid path or adding some version of chop fasta to order (if necessary ..maybe with nerf to both ) might influence the game ..anything like that ???

[NSKaneda]

If chopp fasta (and other CDecreasers) are getting looked at, will order CD Increasers (including morale) get moved/removed/mirrored for balance's sake?

Asking for a friend

[Gurf]

If chopp fasta (and other CDecreasers) are getting looked at, will order CD Increasers (including morale) get moved/removed/mirrored for balance's sake?

Asking for a friend

What specifically do you mean? The main aoe increasers Shattered limbs is mirrored to SH exactly, I would argue that it is easier for SH to apply as they have a pounce and escape

Morale increasers/decreasers is a completely different discussion, which you could make in a different thread as I don't see how it is related?

[NSKaneda]

Spoiler:

If chopp fasta (and other CDecreasers) are getting looked at, will order CD Increasers (including morale) get moved/removed/mirrored for balance's sake?

Asking for a friend

What specifically do you mean? The main aoe increasers Shattered limbs is mirrored to SH exactly, I would argue that it is easier for SH to apply as they have a pounce and escape

Morale increasers/decreasers is a completely different discussion, which you could make in a different thread as I don't see how it is related?

I mean order morale game that counters destro CDecrease one (destro don't have that btw). Related since you use one to fight the other I guess?

[emiliorv]

Spoiler:

The main problem with adding extra skill to other class is that the Order classes got more benefit from reduce cd.
For example:
-Slayer can spam ID.
-SW can spam Barrage in skrimish, Fastering Arrow in scout, Brutal Assault in assault spec:p
-WL can spam Lion fury

np to add extra reduce cd skill to other order class if you make some skills not affected by cd modification abilites like mara Thunderous blow or ST dok/wp heal.

Well yes this is exactly the problem and shows how potentially powerful they can be, the cooldown decreaser can turn a class which on its own is balanced into something verging on OP, because the most powerful abilities have longer cooldowns by definition. Which is exactly the same on Destro, for example right now a MSH can top the damage charts easily because of cooldown decreasers their Big Bouncin is on a 3 second cooldown, turning a strong class into OP territory.

Its an effective massive boost to all classes eg Mara disorient and interrupt halving their cooldown so they can be applied twice as much and most of their main aoe ablities cooldown halved. Destro healers have their cleanse without cooldown so it can be spammed. Most classes aoe is on 10 second cooldown so by removing 5 seconds you are effectively doubling its uptime.

At the start the abilities cooldowns were worked out with formulae due to how powerful the ability is and cost etc, to just add in an extra cooldown decreaser to one side only is obviously throwing this all completely out of balance. At the moment on order Whispering Winds is probably the way it should be on both sides, ie it is an ability which is unreliable and can be parried/blocked SM cc'd etc, so it takes communication and team work to align your abilities with it. While Destro can run around spamming theirs reliably with barely any teamwork or communication needed at all

Order CD increaser is UNDEFENDABLE while destro cd increaser isnt => but this is (somehow) balanced, and working as intended.

as others said before you cant balance in vaccum (well we really know that this topic is nothing related to balance...)