do we have a balance problem?

[aa91837]

City has always favoured melee ball and Destro has always had an easier time making melee ball warbands. Part of City should be changed to favour ranged over melee , or at least Altdorf instances should. Just like the Devs changed forts to make it easier for Destro, changes should be made to city to help ranged classes.

Also cooldown decreasers obviously need looking at as that is primarily why classes like MSH overperform in City , because then skills like Big Bouncing is on 3 second cooldown, Destro healers have spammable cleanse etc. AM survivability needs to be brought up to Shaman level.

Those are the most obvious balance issues outside of the ridiculous numbers Destro have at the moment.

i think Devs should place walls for engis/bws in Altdorf , so they can safely spam they aoe(like in forts), also engi needs more buffs.

[Sundowner]

more than a year of one side having 70% winrate in cities, yeah totally player issue

[TreefAM]

No I am not talking about that, but I don't want to call names. I think it's pretty obvious what are the most active and organized guilds in Order

I really want to know which these best order guilds are, because being in a guild 24man doesn't matter if your dps runs like headless chickens and your healers hold hands and wait to be cleaved like statues.

[Naelar]

Spoiler:

so guys we have now filled nearly 40 sites with more or less (more less than all) helpful assumptions about is ORDER right now in a worse situation vs DESTRO. Looks like we hit here a sensitive subject to some people.

My expectations to this discussion was not to find a final answer to the question is and when yes why is ORDER now in a worser shape. But to keep a discussion up about balance even when the forum is wildy biased about own class and realm. To make it clear -DESTRO had have the same right accordingly to forts.

To take City's in compare for balance is needed and important. First of all its a WB vs WB instanced environment. As by Devs declared we dont play a solo game. So Open pvp and even Sc´s are not meaningful. Only in City's we can nearly see all classes of each realm fighting each other. Synergies between classes and ability's can be seen here preferably and why some classes are not fit the actual WB meta.

To bring my post to a end i post the last city's i was in. Nearly anything is discussable and based on own point of view. Results not. So to show it was not just a single city to DESTRO pride time with 100% win rate on 19.12 i continued to collect (i know i missed one or two).
19.12.2020

20.12.2020

21.12.2020

23.12.2020


maybe some one can provide the city 22nd of december?

so if i dont miscounted 53 instances
Desto won 41 - 77% win
Order won 12 - 23% win

If we stay with the argument "OrDeR iS jUsT To StUpId tO GrOuP uP" and "CaNt PlAy In GrOuPs" we should go back to the old Fort theard (died because no one interested in anymore after we have now every day a Altdorf in EU primetime), bring old Forts back and discuss why DESTRO is not able to siege the forts. Maybe its also just a player problem and not a ingame/balance problem.
Not sure if it is possible in this environment to discuss actual balance situation. If not i just continue to collect city's like forts got collected to show actual unbalance in realms (mind you for both sides)

So, over the last few months, I've seen Order fort win rate about the same, but in the opposite direction. Supposedly it was 'balanced', and Destro needed to 'git gud'. Seems like Order needs to find a way to do the same.

[mubbl]

more than a year of one side having 70% winrate in cities, yeah totally player issue

Hmm, just look in this topic...we got complains on stuff from people, who basicly play the counter to that thingy and they say there is no counter. Or it is called that the mirror is not there (aoe kd for eg).
Or some shananigans like cd increase vs decrease.
For aoe on destro mostly channels are affected by it, but you can still counter it with cd increase and interrupts, which order has planty.
Sure some things are partialy true, but if you look a bit deeper thats just not as bad as it looks like.

[Sundowner]

more than a year of one side having 70% winrate in cities, yeah totally player issue

Hmm, just look in this topic...we got complains on stuff from people, who basicly play the counter to that thingy and they say there is no counter. Or it is called that the mirror is not there (aoe kd for eg).
Or some shananigans like cd increase vs decrease.
For aoe on destro mostly channels are affected by it, but you can still counter it with cd increase and interrupts, which order has planty.
Sure some things are partialy true, but if you look a bit deeper thats just not as bad as it looks like.

Yeah, dude, totally player issue, 1 year and order can't figure out how to properly play classes in cities, yeah, that's totally it.

or, maybe, for city playstyle order classes are subpar and their synergies are worse than destro ones?

[Kaeldrick]

more than a year of one side having 70% winrate in cities, yeah totally player issue

Hmm, just look in this topic...we got complains on stuff from people, who basicly play the counter to that thingy and they say there is no counter. Or it is called that the mirror is not there (aoe kd for eg).
Or some shananigans like cd increase vs decrease.
For aoe on destro mostly channels are affected by it, but you can still counter it with cd increase and interrupts, which order has planty.
Sure some things are partialy true, but if you look a bit deeper thats just not as bad as it looks like.

Yeah, dude, totally player issue, 1 year and order can't figure out how to properly play classes in cities, yeah, that's totally it.

or, maybe, for city playstyle order classes are subpar and their synergies are worse than destro ones?

Hi!

Imho it's indeed a player problem. 90% of the Cities I've done were against order yolo warbands meanwhile on destro side we don't even queue if we don't have a 2-2-2. I've been participating in Cities from start and yes, it's still the same since then. I don't doubt that players know their classes but how to make work synergies without the base setup you need? Create better organised warbands and use vocals, you'll win more.
Example : in last 2 cities, order had 3-4 tanks, 2-4 healers and rest was rdps, mainly SW/Engie... not performing well in City specially when it's 4 SW + 6 Engie + 2 BW, meanwhile we were in a 2-2-2...

Btw, the 10% remaining were nightmares for us destro : order 2-2-2 warbands are really strong!

[Sundowner]

Hmm, just look in this topic...we got complains on stuff from people, who basicly play the counter to that thingy and they say there is no counter. Or it is called that the mirror is not there (aoe kd for eg).
Or some shananigans like cd increase vs decrease.
For aoe on destro mostly channels are affected by it, but you can still counter it with cd increase and interrupts, which order has planty.
Sure some things are partialy true, but if you look a bit deeper thats just not as bad as it looks like.

Yeah, dude, totally player issue, 1 year and order can't figure out how to properly play classes in cities, yeah, that's totally it.

or, maybe, for city playstyle order classes are subpar and their synergies are worse than destro ones?

Hi!

Imho it's indeed a player problem. 90% of the Cities I've done were against order yolo warbands meanwhile on destro side we don't even queue if we don't have a 2-2-2. I've been participating in Cities from start and yes, it's still the same since then. I don't doubt that players know their classes but how to make work synergies without the base setup you need? Create better organised warbands and use vocals, you'll win more.
Example : in last 2 cities, order had 3-4 tanks, 2-4 healers and rest was rdps, mainly SW/Engie... not performing well in City specially when it's 4 SW + 6 Engie + 2 BW, meanwhile we were in a 2-2-2...

Btw, the 10% remaining were nightmares for us destro : order 2-2-2 warbands are really strong!

Yeah sure bro, and the reason that order just do not bothers with even queuing and forming up for city is not caused by the neglection of disbalance for more than a year, when order had few classes suited for city and destro, having better classes for melee ball, was defeating order for months and months which resulted not only gear gap, but player mentality, order just doesn't bother anymore. and, hear me out, it is not because players have inheretly that mentality, that's because neglecting balance issues for a long time led to this.

also one side having clearly less classes optimized for city, somehow, is not an issue according to some. and the answer is just play slayer bruh. it is both funny and sad. When order winrate was 90% in forts, I was saying that is not a player issue and devs quickly reduced population cap which helped destro a lot, but cities are like 70% 30% for more than a year and we did not even receive answer from devs about their visio, do they think that it's really player issue or balance? or both?

[teiloh]

Hi!

Imho it's indeed a player problem. 90% of the Cities I've done were against order yolo warbands meanwhile on destro side we don't even queue if we don't have a 2-2-2. I've been participating in Cities from start and yes, it's still the same since then. I don't doubt that players know their classes but how to make work synergies without the base setup you need? Create better organised warbands and use vocals, you'll win more.
Example : in last 2 cities, order had 3-4 tanks, 2-4 healers and rest was rdps, mainly SW/Engie... not performing well in City specially when it's 4 SW + 6 Engie + 2 BW, meanwhile we were in a 2-2-2...

Btw, the 10% remaining were nightmares for us destro : order 2-2-2 warbands are really strong!

I think if it were just a "yolo warband" issue, there would not have been a 7-10% hard, statistical shift in win rates immediately following the Morale dump balance patch. It's a tall order to ask players to play very specific classes down to 2-3 groups individualized down to each member in order to counter just about any Destro 2-2-2 or 1-3-2

[Kaeldrick]

Yeah, dude, totally player issue, 1 year and order can't figure out how to properly play classes in cities, yeah, that's totally it.

or, maybe, for city playstyle order classes are subpar and their synergies are worse than destro ones?

Hi!

Imho it's indeed a player problem. 90% of the Cities I've done were against order yolo warbands meanwhile on destro side we don't even queue if we don't have a 2-2-2. I've been participating in Cities from start and yes, it's still the same since then. I don't doubt that players know their classes but how to make work synergies without the base setup you need? Create better organised warbands and use vocals, you'll win more.
Example : in last 2 cities, order had 3-4 tanks, 2-4 healers and rest was rdps, mainly SW/Engie... not performing well in City specially when it's 4 SW + 6 Engie + 2 BW, meanwhile we were in a 2-2-2...

Btw, the 10% remaining were nightmares for us destro : order 2-2-2 warbands are really strong!

Yeah sure bro, and the reason that order just do not bothers with even queuing and forming up for city is not caused by the neglection of disbalance for more than a year, when order had few classes suited for city and destro, having better classes for melee ball, was defeating order for months and months which resulted not only gear gap, but player mentality, order just doesn't bother anymore. and, hear me out, it is not because players have inheretly that mentality, that's because neglecting balance issues for a long time led to this.

That's a fair point. So now, how to make order try seriously Cities again? Many changes on classes have been made lately but situation of order warbands in Cities is still the same... no tanks, no healers and a ton of rdps. We don't even see slayers... A slayer ball in City with synced Rampage is still deadly.

Yes, morale dump patch had heavy consequences on gameplay based on it. Couldn't you find some alternatives to it? Mabe they should rollback on this change and make morale bombing great again, why not if it can make order community come back into fights!