Unchain the Terrain - Making Greystone Tower TC open again

[andy]

that spot from my experience seems to only be popular for engineers.

And?

[phononHYPE]

...
I dont have an issue with that spot, just having a hard time trying to understand how you can enjoy playing the game the way you do. Maybe you got some other activities while you sit and wait for 20min for some soloer to potentialy show up so that you can 7X snipe that person.
My guess is that you sit there and wait for someone to start attacking a keep so that you can move to the next tower.

This is like WE on live, or at least long before stealth change, where you find a spot to hang out and sit there and sit there and sit there until solo mark comes along. But they can't fight back, or if they do (run up and try to jump onto the tower) they get obliterated trying (snipe squad until fail, then knock back), etc.

Boring as heck to some, but honestly, a viable option.

[Eisenbart2]

So it seems to be that everyone is overshadowing what I seem to think the devs found the logical reason for these two spots beging "overextention zone"
The spots give you a hight advantage to cover a Battleobject
Simple as that.

Yes Magus' are known for standing on top of the branches in Black Craig and other spots, but these spots are not directly covering a Battleobjective.
Predicted counter arguement: "but the crypt in Troll country is a natural funnel or melee advantage BO"
Yep, and it is clearly designed to be as such. If a Building near a Battle object requires you to makeing a jump only doable on mount, from the PVE zone to cover an RVR Battleobject. That is CLEARLY not intented to be used as covering fire. If you cant see this, sorry but you have colored glasses on.

An other few details about this tower spot at the Greystone keep BO in T2 empire trollcountry.
- You need to be mounted to get up there. Ergo can one engineer spamming aoe block any enemies trying to make the jump. (60%chance to not get dismounted on a 100g mount)
- You need to enter PVE to make this jump. That fact alone should make it pretty clear that this spot is not an intented RVR fortification to hold any battleobjectives( Note if you enter pve and jump to a spot that will give you an advantage in rvr but not covering more than a supply route or random roam i think it is an other matter and more allowed)
- This issue was not on Live because range was not as extreme, on RoR engineer and Magus can get extreme range and this opens up a can of worms for the original map designs.

So why do i think Battleobjectives make this a yey/ney arguement, well because this is campaign driven game. From standing downstairs on the flag groundtargetAoe such as Pit of shade can not reach up. The snipers up on top have the advantage of the ceiling and sideall to break Line of sight at their will whereas the people on the ground have to stand in the open being exposed.

IF people really wanted to do this next level, they would park a bunch of not flagged pve order players in the pve zone where you need to jump from, collision would kick in as destro jumpers approach and they are blocked by the not rvr flagged bodies. Can you understand how this spot is exploitable now? Just because you failed to dismount the PNP warband doesnt mean the spot is legit.

Dear Bombling,

These are my personal observations to your points. They are not critic, just my perspective.

The spot can be reached without mount if you know how to jump one way and mounted on three ways - there is no bottleneck visible for me which supports your argument of one engi being enough to cover the approach.
When I am standing on the tower I can only see half the BO, the other half is covered by the tower we are talking about. Furthermore, the route through pve is 30s with a rvr/pve entrance close by.

In addition, your argument that the engis can break line of sight as they please seems logically not consistent, as line of sight should work both ways. As I mentioned above the BO can be caped from cover (out of range from the tower position) so the tower can only function as a base of operation not really a position to control the BO.

What do you think about this lens?

[Kaori1]

I'm with the devs on this one, no map exploits please. If you guys want more vantage points then maybe you should suggest that they add more to the map/terrain, maybe even add a ramp to get up to that tower...?

"But everyone can do it"
^By the way, this is the weakest non-argument you can ever make when talking about exploits.

[Bloodmasked]

Last Patchnotes on 23.12.2020 put a kill debuff on the two Towers in Troll Country.
One at Greystone Keep BO one at Kinschel BO.
Meaning if you go there you get killed after 5 seconds if standing there.
I will concentrate here on the Ruins of Greystone Tower.

The Explanation was that using the Tower is an Exploit by safely working on the opposition without fear of retaliation.
I want to list here several arguments why the Tower is not an Exploit but part of the RvR Enviroment like a hill or a rock.

1) No Bug abuse or Glitch:
To get on the Tower you aren't glitching through Terrain or use the wonky RoR Collision to get there, so it looks like magic. It is simply Mount up and jump.

2) Free Access:
Any Player with a mount can reach the Position from PvE. Like on the screenshot you need to make the first jump mounted and then continue on the roof. Making the jump under combat situation is difficult but not unlikely. More of that in the Point Counterplay. Also you could jump directly on the right spot on the green arrow.

Spoiler:

3) Can't take BO:
If standing on the Tower you are ~170ft away from the Flag. You can't take the BO when you are on top. You could send down some Players but they are toast once a wb arives. So while being in the tower you can't keep the BO and still be out of range.

4) No Enemies no Fun:
Not sure how to put it. When you sit on the Tower there could be nothing happening for 20 minutes or 1 hour if no one wants to go there. This is one of the things with spot gameplay. Be it solo or group gameplay. You have your spot and think someone should come, but you can't be sure.

5) The Opposition doesn't need the tower to get the BO:
If standing behind the walls or simply below the tower or on the east side on the dead angels on the tower one Opposition player can take the BO without players on the Top interfering.

6) Counterplay Knockbacks:
There are several ways to counter a rdps group that is sitting on a position. From an Order perspective the following tactics work against it:
M1 Shaman Aoe Knockback on Range.
rSH AoE Knockback on Range
Dark Elf Balista. I think Ork one too, but I am not sure.
Jump on the position with a player with a Knockback:
Black Guard, Black Orc, Chosen
Jump on the position with a player with AoE Knockback:
DoK, Zealot

We have played for several years now on the position and tried to use some countermeasures vs destro players jumping over the gap. Trying to get behind the wall and try to dismount them before the jump. Although that is usually only a matter of time till more and more players make the jump and begin to knock players of the tower. One by one or in groups. In all the time we never fought off a bigger sized destro warband. There is only one way how this will end. Especially as once a Tank is on the Tower he can be group healed through the wall by his healers and will not get down.

7) Counterplay Warband:
Shooting opposition is nice and fun. But it usually only works on non tanks as these don't have enough time to get out of the range. Healers and Dps are the primary targets. This changes though when they are guarded and healed in a warband. Only by surprise you can get there some kills. If the warband is capable of single target healing we wont do damage. So a simple counter is to stay in a warband where players do their job.

8) Counterplay RDPS:
Destro has some mighty fine rdps. The Magus capable of putting ST on the same range and Aoe on top of the Tower. If he is not alone facing a 12 men and be in a 2/2/2 group or warband we are usually done for. A closer rSH or Sorc can also shoot up on us. On the Tower we can move back a little to get out of sight but if the destro force is bigger and guarded/healed we can't simply take on them.

9) Counterplay Line of sight:
To make the jump on Top and if you want to load your abilities simply hide behind the Tree on Top.

10) Counterplay 6men stuff:
Send in the Tank on the BO and heal him on max range with your healers.

11) Counterplay Read Chat and don't go there.
Ambush groups are usually called out in T4 chat and soonish we got an opposition WB on our heads. If you are a player of the other side simply reading chat and avoid a firezone.


Summary:
I try here to show that while sit on the Tower you aren't a demigod in RvR and blocking the progress of RvR or blocking a zone. On the tower you can try of course to disrupt supply lines and stop ressource carriers. But you can't lock of one BO. If the opposition has a second one Ressources will flow. If the opposition moves in with a 6 men that locks to the sky or a wb they can pick up ressources or clean the towergroup out.

no.

[sonorous]

Spoiler:

I'm with the devs on this one, no map exploits please. If you guys want more vantage points then maybe you should suggest that they add more to the map/terrain, maybe even add a ramp to get up to that tower...?
"But everyone can do it"
^By the way, this is the weakest non-argument you can ever make when talking about exploits.

It's not an exploit. I don't understand how people do not know the difference between using a spacebar and actually glitching terrain.Stop spouting this nonsense.
There are videos of people glitching the terrain... Using mechanics of the game to get to a spot is not an exploit.

Spoiler:

So it seems to be that everyone is overshadowing what I seem to think the devs found the logical reason for these two spots beging "overextention zone"
The spots give you a hight advantage to cover a Battleobject
Simple as that.

Simple as what ? Using the core mechanic of a class to attack a meelee train from a place of advantage ? How do u expect 6 snipe engineers to kite a destro melee blob ? Do u want terrain to only play a factor where it doesnt matter? Again then just make the map flat.

Spoiler:

Yes Magus' are known for standing on top of the branches in Black Craig and other spots, but these spots are not directly covering a Battleobjective.

Why the **** are the walls on a keep from which rdps to shoot from. Should we give rdps an overextension zone for being on the third floor while they are covering a ram. Why have walls around the keep ? U can't even jump with 1000% mount on those places. This reeks of:


"I only want terrain to be used where it is not consequential. But if it is consequential only melee warbands should benefit".
"I want easy access as a meelee train to any rdps classes in rvr."

Spoiler:

Predicted counter arguement: "but the crypt in Troll country is a natural funnel or melee advantage BO".
Yep, and it is clearly designed to be as such. If a Building near a Battle object requires you to makeing a jump only doable on mount, from the PVE zone to
cover an RVR Battleobject. That is CLEARLY not intented to be used as covering fire. If you cant see this, sorry but you have colored glasses on.

Why on earth do u think those towers are there? for visual fidelity ? The orignal devs even put a hole into pve behind the towers on the east and a hole in the wall of the top tower behind the bo so u could jump to it. Don't make stupid assumptions if you don't know all of these spots.

They were clearly put there by original devs to be used. CLEARLY.

Spoiler:

You need to be mounted to get up there. Ergo can one engineer spamming aoe block any enemies trying to make the jump. (60%chance to not get dismounted on a 100g mount)

Again this is wrong. U dont need a 60% mount. Please actully visit these places before making these comments. Otherwise there can't be a descent discussion around them.

Spoiler:

You need to enter PVE to make this jump. That fact alone should make it pretty clear that this spot is not an intented RVR fortification to hold any battleobjectives( Note if you enter pve and jump to a spot that will give you an advantage in rvr but not covering more than a supply route or random roam i think it is an other matter and more allowed)
IF people really wanted to do this next level, they would park a bunch of not flagged pve order players in the pve zone where you need to jump from, collision would kick in as destro jumpers approach

There are 3 ways to jump onto that tower. In the video u saw PNP chose the difficult one. Not our problem. Again actually visit the place before making assumptions that it can be easily body blocked.

Spoiler:

So why do i think Battleobjectives make this a yey/ney arguement, well because this is campaign driven game. From standing downstairs on the flag groundtargetAoe such as Pit of shade can not reach up. The snipers up on top have the advantage of the ceiling and sideall to break Line of sight at their will whereas the people on the ground have to stand in the open being exposed.

Again as has been previously been touched on by someone else. Here we are just selectively choosing facts.

1) Magus ground targeting aoe cant hit up. Yes the is true. Also tanks will struggle to champ challenge from down below.
- What was not mentioned was that magus can snipe back up. So its not like the two sides have a ranged disparity.

2) It was not mentioned that there are in fact 3 places at that location where line of site can be broken. Only a tank needs to actually cap the bo.

• The tower itself can be used as it only has a vantage point east and west, Destro can be directly under on the south side of the tower and there is no way to actually snipe them

• There is a tree literally 5 ft from the jump spot where u can break line of sight

• There are two towers and a wall that healers can stay out of range and break los.

Spoiler:

If you cant see this, sorry but you have colored glasses on.

You are using facts that are just blatently wrong about the locations to justify their removal. Please actully visit them and try jumping on them urself.

In the next breadth you say that funnels and houses were intended, but towers obviously were not. Did the guy making the towers in the original game not know what he was doing when he made every single one in that zone reachable and made holes in the towers in areas that directly looked over the pve jump. Every single one of the four towers had the same charachteristic. Holes in walls overlooking the exact spot from which u need to make the jump.

Another funny thing about rose tinted glasses is that you exclusively play in meelee premade warbands, and make up facts in a post to remove the only actual viable contribution a magus or sniper squad grp can have in an rvr zone. How on earth are u gonna defend a cordoned off BO with a group or warband of rdps? You wont.

Therefore the only consequential thing that remains by ur suggestion is a warband of meelee dps.
The only consequential terrain that should be in rvr is funnels beacause they were CLEARLY intended 15 years again.
And the only part a grp of rdps should play is ganking roamers from a branch. Or doing the exact same thing from keep walls

Im sold.

[Kaori1]

Spoiler:

I'm with the devs on this one, no map exploits please. If you guys want more vantage points then maybe you should suggest that they add more to the map/terrain, maybe even add a ramp to get up to that tower...?
"But everyone can do it"
^By the way, this is the weakest non-argument you can ever make when talking about exploits.

It's not an exploit. I don't understand how people do not know the difference between using a spacebar and actually glitching terrain.Stop spouting this nonsense.
There are videos of people glitching the terrain... Using mechanics of the game to get to a spot is not an exploit.

Except it is an exploit...

In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

Only the devs may decide what is and is not an intended use of game mechanics and their stance on this was clearly defined when they removed this map exploit from the game.

[sonorous]

Spoiler:

I'm with the devs on this one, no map exploits please. If you guys want more vantage points then maybe you should suggest that they add more to the map/terrain, maybe even add a ramp to get up to that tower...?
"But everyone can do it"
^By the way, this is the weakest non-argument you can ever make when talking about exploits.

It's not an exploit. I don't understand how people do not know the difference between using a spacebar and actually glitching terrain.Stop spouting this nonsense.
There are videos of people glitching the terrain... Using mechanics of the game to get to a spot is not an exploit.

Except it is an exploit...

In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

Only the devs may decide what is and is not an intended use of game mechanics and their stance on this was clearly defined when they removed this map exploit from the game.

Spacebar is not a bug or glitch. It is a big button at the middle bottom of your keyboard. Some keyboard layouts may have the spacebar to the left bottom. I will shortly post an image of a keyboard to help u visualise where the spacebar is. There are some instances where u may find an actual bug on the spacebar, but that is for a different topic. Additionally I described in detail how it was intended. But it seems that you stopped reading at the first paragraph.

[hammerhead]

Maybe you should have called the topic "Unchain the spacebar!"

[Kaori1]

Spoiler:

It's not an exploit. I don't understand how people do not know the difference between using a spacebar and actually glitching terrain.Stop spouting this nonsense.
There are videos of people glitching the terrain... Using mechanics of the game to get to a spot is not an exploit.

Except it is an exploit...

In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

Only the devs may decide what is and is not an intended use of game mechanics and their stance on this was clearly defined when they removed this map exploit from the game.

Spacebar is not a bug or glitch. It is a big button at the middle bottom of your keyboard. Some keyboard layouts may have the spacebar to the left bottom. I will shortly post an image of a keyboard to help u visualise where the spacebar is. There are some instances where u may find an actual bug on the spacebar, but that is for a different topic. Additionally I described in detail how it was intended. But it seems that you stopped reading at the first paragraph.

So exploits are ok as long as they're easy to perform?