Patch Notes 28/05/2021

[Sulorie]

5. NB brokes GCD, and with the help of its ability can be cast faster than designed. I donno.
6. NB was blocked in live, why should it be allowed here. In my mind, it was never banned until the last patch.

5 False
6 False

Someone failed to quote here and just answered the questions within the quote?
What ever, the statement, that it was blocked on live, is wrong.

[Sprak]

4th most downloaded addon doesn't prove those who downloaded it use it, or if they did or do, that they weren't in favor of it getting nuked.

what kinda daffy mental gymnastics is this

Let me rephrase it. Just because its downloaded, does not mean the people who downloaded it use it. I've often downloaded an addon and have tried it, then decided it wasn't necessary or that I didn't like it. So there is no proof that even though it is downloaded that it was being used by the downloader, or that they might have used it at one point then stopped all together. Also, downloads does not determine or prove that those individuals were or were not in favor of nuking NB, even if they were using it.

If you can't understand that and think its mental gymnastics, perhaps you should learn to crawl before you try to walk.

[Sprak]

How exactly do you reduce the number of buttons without setting any conditions on when the buttons should and should not be pressed? Activting an ability when off cooldown is a conditional check (the condition being the cooldown), activating an ability if its buff/debuff has dropped off is a conditional check, activating an ability if "enabled" (e.g. Rage level high enough or in the right stance) is a conditional check, and so on.

You're right.

• Changing action bar based on stance is a *conditional* -- ban Plan B

• Casting a skill based on selected target is a *conditional* -- ban Enemy (this one is actually closest to cheating)

Not to mention automatically saying something in chat when you use a skill -- ban think out loud...

The issue I have is that only *some* addons giving an *advantage* were banned, but not all. Either go all in or none at all...

Ban Shadow warriors, when they change their stance, they get a completely new ability set up on their action bar.
Very few people are arguing that a sequencer is the issue. a sequencer would allow you to have fewer buttons, trying to sequence everything onto 1 or 2 buttons would likely be a huge disadvantage. A sequencer also require you to think about the abilities you want to cast, rather than automating the process, which NB did. PlanB simply declutters the action bar and allows the opportunity to use fewer key binds, it does not automate any process. A good example is Shadow Warrior stance change... makes you wonder why Borcs and SM's never had the same type of mechanic built into the game in the first place really. As for enemy, I don't know the in's and out's of it to comment.
If you want to get greasy about automated chat on skill use, might as well start banning the **** out of comm's users, discord, etc.

[tazdingo]

4th most downloaded addon doesn't prove those who downloaded it use it, or if they did or do, that they weren't in favor of it getting nuked.

what kinda daffy mental gymnastics is this

Let me rephrase it. Just because its downloaded, does not mean the people who downloaded it use it. I've often downloaded an addon and have tried it, then decided it wasn't necessary or that I didn't like it. So there is no proof that even though it is downloaded that it was being used by the downloader, or that they might have used it at one point then stopped all together. Also, downloads does not determine or prove that those individuals were or were not in favor of nuking NB, even if they were using it.

If you can't understand that and think its mental gymnastics, perhaps you should learn to crawl before you try to walk.

your fundamental argument is that the number of times something has been downloaded is not indicative of it's popularity, so no need to get personal mate there are hundreds of valid arguments against NB but you're grasping with that one

[Drys]

How exactly do you reduce the number of buttons without setting any conditions on when the buttons should and should not be pressed? Activting an ability when off cooldown is a conditional check (the condition being the cooldown), activating an ability if its buff/debuff has dropped off is a conditional check, activating an ability if "enabled" (e.g. Rage level high enough or in the right stance) is a conditional check, and so on.

You're right.

• Changing action bar based on stance is a *conditional* -- ban Plan B

• Casting a skill based on selected target is a *conditional* -- ban Enemy (this one is actually closest to cheating)

Not to mention automatically saying something in chat when you use a skill -- ban think out loud...

The issue I have is that only *some* addons giving an *advantage* were banned, but not all. Either go all in or none at all...

Ban Shadow warriors, when they change their stance, they get a completely new ability set up on their action bar.
Very few people are arguing that a sequencer is the issue. a sequencer would allow you to have fewer buttons, trying to sequence everything onto 1 or 2 buttons would likely be a huge disadvantage. A sequencer also require you to think about the abilities you want to cast, rather than automating the process, which NB did. PlanB simply declutters the action bar and allows the opportunity to use fewer key binds, it does not automate any process. A good example is Shadow Warrior stance change... makes you wonder why Borcs and SM's never had the same type of mechanic built into the game in the first place really. As for enemy, I don't know the in's and out's of it to comment.
If you want to get greasy about automated chat on skill use, might as well start banning the **** out of comm's users, discord, etc.

But that's precisely my point --

Is it NB automation that's bad? There are other add-ons that also automate processes (TOL, enemy, swift assist). Then those should be banned also.
Is it NB conditionals that's bad? There are other add-ons that also rely on conditionals (Plan B, TOL, enemy, buffhead). Then those should be banned also.
Is it NB simplifies play that's bad? There are other add-ons that also simply play that should be banned.

The problem I have is that one add-on was singled out, while others are deemed "OK" for whatever reason. I just would like to see consistent application of the rationale (whatever it is).

As far as comms/discord/etc.
Personally, it does piss me off when I'm in a PUG that goes up against a premade and gets rolled because the premade is using comms/discord that make them more efficient at targeting and killing high-value targets. The argument "but those tools are also available to you and you should use them" is the same argument that people make for keeping NB. It's available to everyone and if you choose not to use it that's on you. I prefer not to play with discord because it ruins some of the immersive environment and experience for me. I accept that has a negative effect, but that's my choice and on me. Use of NB should be the same. One might even argue comms are worse because unlike NB, they're not even integrated into the game but a completely external program used to give certain groups an advantage...

[Sprak]

You're right.

• Changing action bar based on stance is a *conditional* -- ban Plan B

• Casting a skill based on selected target is a *conditional* -- ban Enemy (this one is actually closest to cheating)

Not to mention automatically saying something in chat when you use a skill -- ban think out loud...

The issue I have is that only *some* addons giving an *advantage* were banned, but not all. Either go all in or none at all...

Ban Shadow warriors, when they change their stance, they get a completely new ability set up on their action bar.
Very few people are arguing that a sequencer is the issue. a sequencer would allow you to have fewer buttons, trying to sequence everything onto 1 or 2 buttons would likely be a huge disadvantage. A sequencer also require you to think about the abilities you want to cast, rather than automating the process, which NB did. PlanB simply declutters the action bar and allows the opportunity to use fewer key binds, it does not automate any process. A good example is Shadow Warrior stance change... makes you wonder why Borcs and SM's never had the same type of mechanic built into the game in the first place really. As for enemy, I don't know the in's and out's of it to comment.
If you want to get greasy about automated chat on skill use, might as well start banning the **** out of comm's users, discord, etc.

But that's precisely my point --

Is it NB automation that's bad? There are other add-ons that also automate processes (TOL, enemy, swift assist). Then those should be banned also.
Is it NB conditionals that's bad? There are other add-ons that also rely on conditionals (Plan B, TOL, enemy, buffhead). Then those should be banned also.
Is it NB simplifies play that's bad? There are other add-ons that also simply play that should be banned.

The problem I have is that one add-on was singled out, while others are deemed "OK" for whatever reason. I just would like to see consistent application of the rationale (whatever it is).

As far as comms/discord/etc.
Personally, it does piss me off when I'm in a PUG that goes up against a premade and gets rolled because the premade is using comms/discord that make them more efficient at targeting and killing high-value targets. The argument "but those tools are also available to you and you should use them" is the same argument that people make for keeping NB. It's available to everyone and if you choose not to use it that's on you. I prefer not to play with discord because it ruins some of the immersive environment and experience for me. I accept that has a negative effect, but that's my choice and on me. Use of NB should be the same. One might even argue comms are worse because unlike NB, they're not even integrated into the game but a completely external program used to give certain groups an advantage...

I disagree that PlanB is anything like/similar to NB. PlanB works based off of a class mechanic, the same as with Shadow Warrior and Squig as they all have mechanics based on stances, its just the SW and SH had theirs hardcoded into the game. You could argue that the Devs should just implement the same type of stance mechanic the SW and SH have when it comes to swapping abilities on the Action Bar.

Games are designed to give you indications/signs of things. Some games do this visually through animations, many by icons displayed on/under target individuals name. Buffhead allows you to see specific ones better outside of the numerous others, but as far as I know, buffhead it doesn't automate your play, response/reaction time, or decision making. It does allow people to play more strategically and efficiently yes, because it gets rid of unnecessary clutter, while highlighting the things that are important to your role/class.

I would say there is argument for cast on click via enemy... since I know you can set things up like that. I guard on click with enemy, but that's it. I don't even remember how to set it up, I had someone help me with the process. I would argue that it likely shaves off some response/reaction time in comparison to targeting and hitting a key bind. I wouldn't be opposed to that type of automation being nuked.

Swift assist most certainly gives a huge advantage, so I don't disagree with you there. I just set it up a couple weeks ago, and still haven't really used it as I run solo a lot. I usually tab to target closest enemy unit or click on them. Although, you could argue that you are still pressing a key to target, as you would with tab targeting anything, the difference being this helps with coordinated attacks to a greater extent.

I don't know what TOL is.

As for text on ability use, I don't see an issue, as it still requires people to read, and it allows pugs to have at least some coordination vs premades in comm's. Comm's is never going away and it doesn't automate gameplay, but it does help with coordination. So yes comm's > no comm's, but the only advantage is coordination, not automation.

Which brings about part of the reason why NB was targeted, because it automates things, reduces reaction/response times, which can be a huge determining factor in a 30 second fight/battle. Shaving off 1-2 seconds of thought process and response/reaction time here and there will make a massive world of difference in a fight. A good example is having your root/snare break pop up instantly while running. I've seen near instant root/snare breaks from plenty of people, to the point that they don't stop or slow at all while running. Or having a disrupt/kd/punt pop up just at the right moment, without handing out immunities. It's funny when I pop Ether Dance, some people are able to interrupt so fast that I only ever see 1 attacks worth of dmg, which I believe is instant on cast, and for each second after. NB can also completely negate the need to rely on buffhead for information, as it automates the thought process for you.

[Sprak]

what kinda daffy mental gymnastics is this

Let me rephrase it. Just because its downloaded, does not mean the people who downloaded it use it. I've often downloaded an addon and have tried it, then decided it wasn't necessary or that I didn't like it. So there is no proof that even though it is downloaded that it was being used by the downloader, or that they might have used it at one point then stopped all together. Also, downloads does not determine or prove that those individuals were or were not in favor of nuking NB, even if they were using it.

If you can't understand that and think its mental gymnastics, perhaps you should learn to crawl before you try to walk.

your fundamental argument is that the number of times something has been downloaded is not indicative of it's popularity, so no need to get personal mate there are hundreds of valid arguments against NB but you're grasping with that one

I'm not saying it does or doesn't indicate that, I'm saying it doesn't prove anything. However, the individual who posted the numbers/ratios of people for/against/indifferent/etc of NB, on the forum, is better evidence/proof/representation of the communities thoughts overall in regards to NB.

[Bozzax]

Players online are facts....forum posts are opinions.

I GUESS the server vill loose about a 1/3 of the playerbase. I hope I am wrong.

[sundey]

Spoiler:

You're right.

• Changing action bar based on stance is a *conditional* -- ban Plan B

• Casting a skill based on selected target is a *conditional* -- ban Enemy (this one is actually closest to cheating)

Not to mention automatically saying something in chat when you use a skill -- ban think out loud...

The issue I have is that only *some* addons giving an *advantage* were banned, but not all. Either go all in or none at all...

Ban Shadow warriors, when they change their stance, they get a completely new ability set up on their action bar.
Very few people are arguing that a sequencer is the issue. a sequencer would allow you to have fewer buttons, trying to sequence everything onto 1 or 2 buttons would likely be a huge disadvantage. A sequencer also require you to think about the abilities you want to cast, rather than automating the process, which NB did. PlanB simply declutters the action bar and allows the opportunity to use fewer key binds, it does not automate any process. A good example is Shadow Warrior stance change... makes you wonder why Borcs and SM's never had the same type of mechanic built into the game in the first place really. As for enemy, I don't know the in's and out's of it to comment.
If you want to get greasy about automated chat on skill use, might as well start banning the **** out of comm's users, discord, etc.

But that's precisely my point --

Is it NB automation that's bad? There are other add-ons that also automate processes (TOL, enemy, swift assist). Then those should be banned also.
Is it NB conditionals that's bad? There are other add-ons that also rely on conditionals (Plan B, TOL, enemy, buffhead). Then those should be banned also.
Is it NB simplifies play that's bad? There are other add-ons that also simply play that should be banned.

The problem I have is that one add-on was singled out, while others are deemed "OK" for whatever reason. I just would like to see consistent application of the rationale (whatever it is).

As far as comms/discord/etc.
Personally, it does piss me off when I'm in a PUG that goes up against a premade and gets rolled because the premade is using comms/discord that make them more efficient at targeting and killing high-value targets. The argument "but those tools are also available to you and you should use them" is the same argument that people make for keeping NB. It's available to everyone and if you choose not to use it that's on you. I prefer not to play with discord because it ruins some of the immersive environment and experience for me. I accept that has a negative effect, but that's my choice and on me. Use of NB should be the same. One might even argue comms are worse because unlike NB, they're not even integrated into the game but a completely external program used to give certain groups an advantage...

It's hard to differentiate the people who actually don't see a difference between these addons from those being deliberately dense.

ToL: automates chat messages and is basically the equivalent to simplistic in-game macros.

Enemy: which parts of it? Click-casting, for example, is closer to sequencing (<target group member X> -> <cast heal on group member X>) than automated decision-making.

Swift Assist: its basic function (requiring two macros) existed as a core in-game function on live; chat function similar to ToL; Enemy integration essentially just fancier in-game macroing.

PlanB: I can see an argument that in its hiding/'blocking' of non-current-stance abilities, there's a slight similarity to NB -- I'd never really thought of it this way. It seems/feels different to me, which I suppose is because 1) it's still only rotating hotbars, even if it accomplishes a similar result (in one, limited aspect); 2) that's only one of NB's functions; and 3) (more subjectively) it's basically mirroring the stance-switching functionality of SW/Mara. I realise I might be a little biased here; I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts.

Buffhead: its conditionals affect the display of information -- it doesn't take automatic action in place of the player based on those conditionals.

You say that your problem is that NB has been "singled out" and that you'd like to see consistent application of the rationale for removing it. My view, and I think that of many others who are against the addon (at least in principle), is that NB has been singled out precisely because it's unique and ipso facto there has been no inconsistent application of the devs' underlying rationale. I'm open to being proven wrong -- I'm not an addon expert by any means, but so far I haven't seen any convincing arguments comparing NB with other addons.

[Drys]

At the end of the day, what's the real argument against NB? The patch notes read "We have never really liked the idea of an addon automating conditional checks for players. Now it is blocked." Conditional checks is very vague and could extend to anything that automatically checks for a particular state and then automates an action. I'll give you that buffhead and swift assist don't meet that specific definition (no automatic action), but the other two certainly fit the bill:

TOL:
Checks if a skill was activated (conditional check) and then sends a chat message (automatically). Others leverage that message to take advantage of a buff/debuff. I mean, otherwise I would have to use the skill, THEN type something in chat -- meaning I'm not using other skills while typing in chat.

Enemy:
Click-casting lets you set healer, tank, or dps for different skills (conditional check) and then (automatically) casts a preselected skill when I click on a person's square in the UI. That's far closer to NB conditionals than sequencing. PLUS it removes an entire action -- instead of first selecting a target THEN pushing a skill button, I can do it in ONE action -- click AND cast.

Plan B:
Checks your current stance (conditional check) and then changes your hotbar depending on the stance (automatically). Granted other classes have skill bars change based on stance (WH/WE incognito, Mara/SW). But it still fits the definition as layed out in the patch notes. It gives SMs/BOs the advantage of streamlining their skill availability based on a conditional (same as NB).

EDIT:
Depending on how you read "automating conditional checks" one could still argue that buffhead does automate the conditional check part, but doesn't automate an action.