Why the damage imbalance between Chosen and KoTBS skills?

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

quote=Momekic post_id=512842 time=1654553483 user_id=45030]
I am wondering why there are damage differences on certain similar skills for the Chosen and the Knights?

Skills that are in the same spots on the Mastery Trees:

Eaxmple 1: Relentless (Chosen) vs Myrmidia's Fury (Knight):
[these are pulled from the career builder]
- Relentless "striking up to 6 times in 3 seconds doing 159 damage each hit" - total 159 * 6 = 954
- Myrm's Fury "dealing up to 792 damage in 3 seconds"
There is a tactic that changes relentless to Spirit damage making it do even more than Myrm's Fury

Example 2: Quake (Chosen) vs Heaven's Fury (Knight):
- Quake "217 Spirit damage"
- Heaven's Fury "105 Elemental damage"

I mainly pose the question because there are abilities that are in the same spots in the Mastery Trees for both classes that do the same damage (Downfall and Smashing Counter). It seems like with all the changes to Knights and Chosen, abilities like the above 2 would be made pretty much the same.

Is anyone on the dev team willing to share the logic behind differences like these (Other than "we don't want to mirror")?
[/quote]

Because there is not perfect mirroring in game

Ch is cross mirrored with sm and ib, they have skills in common such ravage relentless and touch of palsy + knock back originaly. If you are LF the spirit dmg of chosen coevalent on order, look at sm.

Kobs have more def support and has been cross mirrored mostly with bg a bit of b.ork where it dosent matter.

Even in s+b mode ch will bring off support when kobs bring heal support. They just work differently.

Nb: kobs/bg where relased togheter and by a diff dev team, originaly ch/ib were the only tank with longer punt and also had 10 sec CD

What kobs/ch have in common is aura meccanic, and only some aura, for most part they are complete alike exept the role they have in wb.

[Sulorie]

..., now all defensive skills must be used with a shield with the exception of perseverance, which leaves the 2h builds without the durability and without the damage, basically using it at 2h is trolling because it neither deals damage nor takes damage.

I would call wounds/ctbc debuff and faster punt CD a pretty good reason to go 2h in small scale.

[nocturnalguest]

Myrmidia's Fury is not only worst tank channel ability, but a wasted mastery point, pure garbage. It has such low base damage and main stat&mastery scaling that its usage with recent GCD changes and even before them results in that speccing this skill is actually harmful, its usage is a dmg loss.
Its damage is ~x2 (depending on exact stats) lower then Ether Dance&Tree Hit Combo (despite MF being 6 ticks and ED&THC 5) and ~x1,5 then BG&IB channels before mitigation and considering physical damage type of Myrmidia's Fury with mitigation its not even funny.
Im no dev, but answering your question - no, there is no logic behind this. This is one of the cases with dead abilities/tactics having 0 use in any real game environment that is simply overlooked as low priority. However fixing base values&scalers with a method of analogy is definitely not labour-intensive.
Back in 2017/2018 (i dont recall and too lazy to search) there was a big "tank channel discussion" with former developers, result was pretty good, we had ticks clearly fixed for all of them (few were missing, few were doing additional hits, AA hits on finish were missing), scalers were adjusted. I can guess that scalers on MF were probably meant for it being elem dmg, however its not the case anymore and elem tactic is cut off on kotbs.
Also with all the mastery trees revamps (for instance BG) i highly suspect (im 99,99(9)% sure actually) that scalers were left as is thus creating even more imbalance between abilities and their mastery tree allocations.
However whole current situation can be considered "fine" tho, balance wise. Tank channels should be accessible in 2h specs and their usage over other abilities should be justified by their dmg or utility they give (plus i love the mechanic of bursting if you interrupt). Small tweaks that would at least justify MF usage for DPS (instead of current dps loss) would help, but i wouldnt want to see a full overhaul for all of them, cause that would require somekinda general logic and here it starts to get tricky.

[penagos22]

I am surprised that there are people who continue to argue that the kobts should not have damage because it has a lot of utility, when to have damage it had to sacrifice that utility, and that was the fun that you could do many builds, and when you look at the people who says that are obvious biased chaos.

[tazdingo]

what utility are you sacrificing? all of kotbs good stuff is inherent except a couple things in the right tree which is where you're going for runefang anyway. dirty tricks isnt that great at 5%

kotbs and chosen are like zeal and rp, they have dumpy trees because their base abilities and tactics are so good

[penagos22]

..., now all defensive skills must be used with a shield with the exception of perseverance, which leaves the 2h builds without the durability and without the damage, basically using it at 2h is trolling because it neither deals damage nor takes damage.

I would call wounds/ctbc debuff and faster punt CD a pretty good reason to go 2h in small scale.

yes, very good, and when they focus on you or your guard?

The nerf to vigilance doesn't make any sense because all mechanics at 2h depended on this ability.

meanwhile the BO has its own version of vigilance in the dps path and nobody says anything....

[penagos22]

what utility are you sacrificing? all of kotbs good stuff is inherent except a couple things in the right tree which is where you're going for runefang anyway. dirty tricks isnt that great at 5%

kotbs and chosen are like zeal and rp, they have dumpy trees because their base abilities and tactics are so good

I give you an example, if you wanted to do damage with the glory path, you went to the middle path and took vigilance first (tier 13 and 11) and as tactics you used laurels of victory, mighty soul (which converted all the damage of THE SKILLS OF THE PATH OF GLORY into elemental damage ), runefang (which increased str, wp and ini by 240) and destroy confidence (which removed 3 enchantments from the target and for each one dealt as much damage as a good combo with mighty soul) which utility sacrificed no +15% heals, no +10 of crit chance no shorter cd on punt, and many more..

[nocturnalguest]

what utility are you sacrificing? all of kotbs good stuff is inherent except a couple things in the right tree which is where you're going for runefang anyway. dirty tricks isnt that great at 5%

kotbs and chosen are like zeal and rp, they have dumpy trees because their base abilities and tactics are so good

I give you an example, if you wanted to do damage with the glory path, you went to the middle path and took vigilance first (tier 13 and 11) and as tactics you used laurels of victory, mighty soul (which converted all the damage of THE SKILLS OF THE PATH OF GLORY into elemental damage ), runefang (which increased str, wp and ini by 240) and destroy confidence (which removed 3 enchantments from the target and for each one dealt as much damage as a good combo with mighty soul) which utility sacrificed no +15% heals, no +10 of crit chance no shorter cd on punt, and many more..

Ah gud ol' times... KOTBS was indeed great for such niche unga bunga playstyle. Valid points you bring, there were never enough reasons to completely cut it out from the game, its unjustified, it simply kills diversity for builds and narrows down you to "supply bot". Except destroy confidence, i think its save to say it was pretty OP.
With all the nerfs kotbs get its probably the least tank in terms of build options. 1 for snb, 2 for 2h (2 cause 6v6 and city can differ a bit, but they are basically the same and serve the only purpose - full utility). 3 possible builds total

[tazdingo]

what utility are you sacrificing? all of kotbs good stuff is inherent except a couple things in the right tree which is where you're going for runefang anyway. dirty tricks isnt that great at 5%

kotbs and chosen are like zeal and rp, they have dumpy trees because their base abilities and tactics are so good

I give you an example, if you wanted to do damage with the glory path, you went to the middle path and took vigilance first (tier 13 and 11) and as tactics you used laurels of victory, mighty soul (which converted all the damage of THE SKILLS OF THE PATH OF GLORY into elemental damage ), runefang (which increased str, wp and ini by 240) and destroy confidence (which removed 3 enchantments from the target and for each one dealt as much damage as a good combo with mighty soul) which utility sacrificed no +15% heals, no +10 of crit chance no shorter cd on punt, and many more..

you cannot have the def 13 and its tactic in your off spec, no

also i still think all tanks should do less dmg and have more utility and protection abilities, they're all boring quasi dps now

[penagos22]

what utility are you sacrificing? all of kotbs good stuff is inherent except a couple things in the right tree which is where you're going for runefang anyway. dirty tricks isnt that great at 5%

kotbs and chosen are like zeal and rp, they have dumpy trees because their base abilities and tactics are so good

I give you an example, if you wanted to do damage with the glory path, you went to the middle path and took vigilance first (tier 13 and 11) and as tactics you used laurels of victory, mighty soul (which converted all the damage of THE SKILLS OF THE PATH OF GLORY into elemental damage ), runefang (which increased str, wp and ini by 240) and destroy confidence (which removed 3 enchantments from the target and for each one dealt as much damage as a good combo with mighty soul) which utility sacrificed no +15% heals, no +10 of crit chance no shorter cd on punt, and many more..

Ah gud ol' times... KOTBS was indeed great for such niche unga bunga playstyle. Valid points you bring, there were never enough reasons to completely cut it out from the game, its unjustified, it simply kills diversity for builds and narrows down you to "supply bot". Except destroy confidence, i think its save to say it was pretty OP.
With all the nerfs kotbs get its probably the least tank in terms of build options. 1 for snb, 2 for 2h (2 cause 6v6 and city can differ a bit, but they are basically the same and serve the only purpose - full utility). 3 possible builds total

yes it was op, but it was a tactic slot that you sacrificed. For me, the tactics must be op, since you cannot have them all and you must choose only 4, if the effect of destroy confidence were baseline there, it would be worth a good nerf..