SW - modest ideas for improvement

[dtjror]

I certainly won't claim to be an expert on the class, but having played one to at least a mediocre level (~RR 65), and having read a fair amount of other feedback on these forums, I thought I would take a stab at some suggestions that hopefully are perceived and received as modest but helpful, straightforward, and logical both practically and thematically.

The basic idea here is to address what seems to be the general consensus for the shortcomings of the class - namely that its "jack of all trades, master of none" nature spreads it too thin in every direction. So, still respecting that nature, give each aspect a small boost, which taken cumulatively do not put it over the top. Hence -

1. Make it medium armor at base. This would provide a small but noticeable passive increase in survivability, particularly against the destro melee zerg, which is sorely needed without otherwise having active tools. It would still be most vulnerable against casters, which is appropriate given that as a (primarily) physical damage dealing class, those are the classes against which it is also most effective. It also just makes sense thematically. How is it that a class that goes from leather to scale to plate/scale is in the same armor tier as a class with all robes? Artistically and conceptually, it's much more akin to a White Lion than an Archmage.

2. Scout Stance - First, change the BS increase to RAP. This would allow it to fully stack on top of the BS cap, thus nominally increasing damage. Second, eliminate the INI buff. It makes no sense - standing still casting build up abilities makes it easier to dodge and avoid being crit? Instead, increase the range buff by another 5 ft. This puts it on even footing with the SH (I won't make many class comparisons, but this one seemed apt), and just enhances the defensive component of the stance that is already most appropriate.

3. Assault Stance - If the class has base medium armor, then obviously the armor enhancing component of this stance should be eliminated. But what, if anything, should be done to compensate? Maybe increase the parry bonus further (15%)? Also I'm not saying anything original in suggesting that Sweeping Slash needs to have its cooldown reduced, but maybe incorporate a further reduction as part of this stance, instead of or in addition to the auto attack changes. I confess no real experience or knowledge of this playstyle, so perhaps others can chime in better.

4. Skirmish Stance - Due to other mechanics, Toughness is essentially a useless stat for an SW, so this stance really has no defensive component at the moment. Address this by changing it to INI. Again thematically, it's a much better fit. Or, add a straight Dodge/ Disrupt buff (2%?).

5. Lileath’s Arrow - This is the classes' only base (range) AOE damage. Ironically however, in AOE spec it's moot. Change its damage type from physical to Spirit. This makes it useful again, and provides a nominal boost to AOE damage, since it is not impacted by armor mitigation, which is a key problem for the spec.

A final thought is that it would be nice to see Assault spec viable at lower renown and gear levels. How to accomplish that is well outside my punching range however and is probably a detailed discussion in and of itself.

[Kullas69]

It seems changing the armor would be too much of an ask. I would rather see it stay the same, but perhaps add a baseline aoe detaunt skill in assault stance only to improve surviveability. We have this as a tactic, but yea.

To be more desired in groups the ap ability should be buffed considerably. It isn't enough to be impactful atm. Also, the ap costs for assault abilities may need to be tweaked down a tad, it is a real limitation of assault spec.

I agree sweeping slash cooldown should be reduced. Perhaps add a stagger immunity for 5 secs with swift strikes if vengeance is up?

Whirling pin should be a little more reliable too.

I don't think major changes need to be made. I enjoy playing SW despite the weaknesses.

[Sever1n]

Every time somebody understands that sw in bad spot and underperforms, '' elite '' sw appears in treads with '' counterarguments'' to say how its' 'good and op''. To be viable in orvr class need spam aoe antisnare and mass detaunt atleast. SW doesnt have that. So u cant follow blob, cant decrease dmg when your guard off position, and cant do dmg without wispering wind coz your rotation is unholy piano, that cannot be used with 10fps lags in rvr. U have base 7k!!!! Hp, physical always support build that used to shoot in face of blob => hold the line and pulls, when slays can ignore defs, lions can hit backlines, bw can do magic dmg. Thats the main reason why our wb use it in owerflow to be arnorshred, pierce1ambushbot and why its not used as main dps. And assault is just trashcopy of hat/we with ton armor against destro with ton non phys dmg. Thats why its so bad.

[Deadpoet]

About the OP's suggestions:

1- medium armor at base isn't viable, as denying this change to other range dps classes (especially their semi-mirror squig herders) would be problematic to justify. Also, the double armor of assault is about the only thing that keeps the melee SW afloat in a sea of heavy destro melee physical damage, in a class that is probably the only class with not even a modicum of self heal nor absorb nor %dmg reduction abilities, and one that on top of that has a mandatory tactic in Instinctive Aim that takes 120 toughness from you, making having a decent amount of toughness materially impossible.

2- changing Scout bonus from ini to +%range and Skirmish from toughness to ini are sound suggestions.

3- reducing CD of Sweeping Slash would go towards making Assaukt SW an AoE dmage dealer, but would need a ton of other changes too to make that viable, and I dont think Assault SW should be reworked into an AoE dps. The role is quite clear and I think reasonable: ST burst.

3- changing Lileaths Arrow to spiritual makes Powerful Draw tactic less meaningful, as it wouldn't contribute to the skirmish SW's signature AoE ability.

[dtjror]

About the OP's suggestions:

1- medium armor at base isn't viable, as denying this change to other range dps classes (especially their semi-mirror squig herders) would be problematic to justify. Also, the double armor of assault is about the only thing that keeps the melee SW afloat in a sea of heavy destro melee physical damage, in a class that is probably the only class with not even a modicum of self heal nor absorb nor %dmg reduction abilities, and one that on top of that has a mandatory tactic in Instinctive Aim that takes 120 toughness from you, making having a decent amount of toughness materially impossible.

2- changing Scout bonus from ini to +%range and Skirmish from toughness to ini are sound suggestions.

3- reducing CD of Sweeping Slash would go towards making Assaukt SW an AoE dmage dealer, but would need a ton of other changes too to make that viable, and I dont think Assault SW should be reworked into an AoE dps. The role is quite clear and I think reasonable: ST burst.

3- changing Lileaths Arrow to spiritual makes Powerful Draw tactic less meaningful, as it wouldn't contribute to the skirmish SW's signature AoE ability.

1. Justification is simple - SH has active survivability tools (note I said “without [those] otherwise”), and SW doesn’t do nearly as much damage as other ranged classes. But it’s just as squishy (outside of assault spec). A bit more survivability seems a fair trade for the lower damage. Assaults double armor essentially makes it a medium armor class in that stance, I’m not suggesting taking that away without doing medium armor at base. But then assault needs something else for an even greater measure of survivability, like even more parry (or maybe not - maybe that stance is fine as is survivability wise).

2. Glad you think so.

3. I’m not suggesting it should be an AOE spec, but having a bit of capability in that respect would be nice. 1 AOE on like a 5 sec CD isn’t suddenly going to make it an AOE powerhouse.

3 (sic) - It’s one ability on a 5 sec CD, and would boost AOE damage ever so slightly without having to spec the tactic. If you want max AOE damage, yea spec the talent. But with split arrows, why even cast it? In AOE spec, the “signature ability” becomes pointless (65 ft. line vs. 20ft radius at 65ft range - which is more effective against the blob?).

[Farrul]

1. Justification is simple - SH has active survivability tools (note I said “without [those] otherwise”), and SW doesn’t do nearly as much damage as other ranged classes. But it’s just as squishy (outside of assault spec). A bit more survivability seems a fair trade for the lower damage. Assaults double armor essentially makes it a medium armor class in that stance, I’m not suggesting taking that away without doing medium armor at base. But then assault needs something else for an even greater measure of survivability, like even more parry (or maybe not - maybe that stance is fine as is survivability wise).

2. Glad you think so.

3. I’m not suggesting it should be an AOE spec, but having a bit of capability in that respect would be nice. 1 AOE on like a 5 sec CD isn’t suddenly going to make it an AOE powerhouse.

3 (sic) - It’s one ability on a 5 sec CD, and would boost AOE damage ever so slightly without having to spec the tactic. If you want max AOE damage, yea spec the talent. But with split arrows, why even cast it? In AOE spec, the “signature ability” becomes pointless (65 ft. line vs. 20ft radius at 65ft range - which is more effective against the blob?).

Medium armor would be a nerf for Assault, currently it sits between medium and heavy armor, approaches heavy armor with a few armor talis. As for Scout medium armor would be awkward for a supposed ''light'' mobile archer, makes more sense for Skirmish that needs to be in close-range.

Agreed on Sweeping strike cd and ini change on Skirmish stance.

Imho what this class needs is a numerical and skill-tree tweak.

Scout: Festering Arrow more or less requiring 2 tactics should be reworked. Enchanted-arrows changed into something else and old effect incorporated in No Qaurter tactic or base FA, give scout slightly more mobility (e.g Guerilla training increased to 25-30% movement speed with perhaps a nerf to AP reduction). Make whirling pin more reliable as someone suggested. Tbh ranged SH 'bow' feels so much better to play than Scout SW, don't know if a further utility tool is needed to help close the gap, it's sad that Scout has been left in this condition for so long.

Skirmish: All Skirmish abilities and Split Arrow tactic increased to 75 range is long overdue imho, 65 range doesn't work in the melee blob meta and trillion choppa pullz going off, i've been testing it with the Invader (10 feet) set bonus and this feels better. Damage feels weak especially after Broadhead arrow nerf, increase effect of Powerful draw to 35%.

[rejndjer]

delete vengeance of nagarythe and increase dmg of all skill 20%. ez. thx.

[shoelessHN]

Make broadhead arrow stack 5X.

[dtjror]

[/quote]
Medium armor would be a nerf for Assault, currently it sits between medium and heavy armor, approaches heavy armor with a few armor talis. As for Scout medium armor would be awkward for a supposed ''light'' mobile archer, makes more sense for Skirmish that needs to be in close-range.

Agreed on Sweeping strike cd and ini change on Skirmish stance.

Imho what this class needs is a numerical and skill-tree tweak.

Scout: Festering Arrow more or less requiring 2 tactics should be reworked. Enchanted-arrows changed into something else and old effect incorporated in No Qaurter tactic or base FA, give scout slightly more mobility (e.g Guerilla training increased to 25-30% movement speed with perhaps a nerf to AP reduction). Make whirling pin more reliable as someone suggested. Tbh ranged SH 'bow' feels so much better to play than Scout SW, don't know if a further utility tool is needed to help close the gap, it's sad that Scout has been left in this condition for so long.

Skirmish: All Skirmish abilities and Split Arrow tactic increased to 75 range is long overdue imho, 65 range doesn't work in the melee blob meta and trillion choppa pullz going off, i've been testing it with the Invader (10 feet) set bonus and this feels better. Damage feels weak especially after Broadhead arrow nerf, increase effect of Powerful draw to 35%.
[/quote]

Didn’t realize that the assault armor buff was that much. In that case, it should keep like a 50% buff (if medium armor at base). I think you have scout and skirmish backwards from a standpoint of which is more mobile and therefore would thematically benefit from lighter armor, but practically you’re right. Conceptually, I don’t think “stances” should affect armor at all, but then where does assault get survivability (which is sort of the same logic for making the class medium at base).

As to the rest, I tried to make suggestions that again were modest and hopefully would be easy to implement. At this point anything more than a few tweaks seems like a pipe-dream

[dtjror]

delete vengeance of nagarythe and increase dmg of all skill 20%. ez. thx.

Does nothing for survivability. In that respect, can either ask for addition of active abilities (unlikely), or passive tweaks. People seem to think medium armor is a stretch, but what other passive change could be made to increase survivability broadly?