Surrender

[Sulorie]

I think there are 2 different types of people that play this game.. 1 - They only are here to fight in scenarios as team death match. This type of player will never do an objective and instead will only go for kills. Often this person despises dying so if they are in a scenario and cannot even achieve 1 kill, surrender is the obvious choice. 2 - They want to win the scenario and only focus on objectives; often ignoring a fight completely. This player is often a tank and will never be found using guard as it could get them kill this preventing them from their precious win. Despite the odds, this type of player will blindly run toward an objective and hold onto hope that they can still get that cap that could turn it to a win. Surrender is never an option even if down 50 - 0 kills.

It is possible that a 3rd type exists.. one that is completely lost, doesn’t know what the objective is nor cares about kills. These types could even be rr80+ and still have no idea how to play.

That's a pretty good description albeit those types deviate to either side in most cases. There is no black and white.

[Minisynn]

.surrender isn't the issue, it's the nature of RoR scenarios being more one-sided than any MMO I've ever played before in my life.

In WoW for example, no matter how badly you're getting clapped in a battleground, you'll pretty much always be able to pick up kills and at least feel like you've got some chance of a comeback. This is because of the nature of the map design, which is massive spread out areas and multiple objectives with tons of line of sight opportunities - so there are always opportunities for fights with out of position enemies without their entire team landing on top of you - as well as healing range being the same as any other casters range, rather than 2-3x longer like it is in RoR, and often covers the length of the entire active fighting area in any RoR scenario.

Compare this to RoR where the vast majority of scenarios primarily revolve around one objective or fighting area, have very little line of sight to play around, and even if there is LoS - there's so much passive healing and aoe healing that goes off through LoS that it often doesn't even matter. As well as this there's guard, which makes it massively harder to punish DPS out of position as a tank can eat pretty much all of the damage for them. All of this combined leads to RoR being the only MMO I've ever played where when solo queuing you'll regularly see matches where the score is along the lines of 50 kills to 0 before one team eventually gives up because they literally have zero chance of making a comeback or denting the enemy team whatsoever. It's a game that literally requires coordination to win more often than not, and the enormous skill gap between good and bad players and how impenetrable a good 2/2/2 premade is in this game only exacerbates this even more.

Not really sure what the solution is though, the mechanics of RoR facilitate one sided matches to the point where you'd need to redesign most of the scenarios in the game and change the mechanics of how particularly healing works in scenarios to stop it from being such a dominating factor in who wins when it comes to pug vs pug matches. And these mechanics, particularly the extremely active role of tanks in comparison to other MMOs, are also what makes RoR stand out as such a unique MMO, so that's not exactly an easy task. That lad who analyses the killboard stats did one for scenarios again recently, and it said that what, 70% of scenarios are a *complete* steamroll in one direction? So of course people are going to want to surrender more often in this game. Solo queuing for SCs in RoR is quite literally the least fun you can have in a MMO most of the time unless you're a good player on a healer, stealther, or high burst single target RDPS.

There's also the other elephant in the room that has changed the way players, premades, and guilds all play this game, possibly more than any change I've ever seen in RoR before, and that's the killboard. I love the idea of having more info available to us, and particularly love the recording of SC stats and city stats - but making character and guild KDAs publically available has created an alt + f4, don't want to die in SCs, don't want to fight in the lakes meta like I've never seen before. I also think it's one of the biggest factors in the absolute state of RvR these days, with half of destros leaders now being on a feckin joint discord network to coordinate because everyone is so afraid of losing fights now because their guild stats are publically available and they're afraid of looking weak/bad more than they care about just having fun in the game. It has also given people a fantastic tool for harassment and bullying which was already rife on this server and has only gotten worse. And myself nor my guild are absolutely not immune to it either, the killboard has absolutely changed the way I play and care about my stats in this game in a way I never thought it would, to the point where I literally don't do any content solo anymore, I don't invite my alts to my guild until they're out of T1 where they're less inclined to rack up deaths, the list goes on, even though I know it makes absolutely no sense - it's just like logging in WoW was for me. And I know that this attitude is insanely pervasive in all of the high level guilds and groups in this game. I'd honestly bet my life on it being one of the main factors of the new attitude that has completely taken over this server

[Akalukz]

Spoiler:

.surrender isn't the issue, it's the nature of RoR scenarios being more one-sided than any MMO I've ever played before in my life.

In WoW for example, no matter how badly you're getting clapped in a battleground, you'll pretty much always be able to pick up kills and at least feel like you've got some chance of a comeback. This is because of the nature of the map design, which is massive spread out areas and multiple objectives with tons of line of sight opportunities - so there are always opportunities for fights with out of position enemies without their entire team landing on top of you - as well as healing range being the same as any other casters range, rather than 2-3x longer like it is in RoR, and often covers the length of the entire active fighting area in any RoR scenario.

Compare this to RoR where the vast majority of scenarios primarily revolve around one objective or fighting area, have very little line of sight to play around, and even if there is LoS - there's so much passive healing and aoe healing that goes off through LoS that it often doesn't even matter. As well as this there's guard, which makes it massively harder to punish DPS out of position as a tank can eat pretty much all of the damage for them. All of this combined leads to RoR being the only MMO I've ever played where when solo queuing you'll regularly see matches where the score is along the lines of 50 kills to 0 before one team eventually gives up because they literally have zero chance of making a comeback or denting the enemy team whatsoever. It's a game that literally requires coordination to win more often than not, and the enormous skill gap between good and bad players and how impenetrable a good 2/2/2 premade is in this game only exacerbates this even more.

Not really sure what the solution is though, the mechanics of RoR facilitate one sided matches to the point where you'd need to redesign most of the scenarios in the game and change the mechanics of how particularly healing works in scenarios to stop it from being such a dominating factor in who wins when it comes to pug vs pug matches. And these mechanics, particularly the extremely active role of tanks in comparison to other MMOs, are also what makes RoR stand out as such a unique MMO, so that's not exactly an easy task. That lad who analyses the killboard stats did one for scenarios again recently, and it said that what, 70% of scenarios are a *complete* steamroll in one direction? So of course people are going to want to surrender more often in this game. Solo queuing for SCs in RoR is quite literally the least fun you can have in a MMO most of the time unless you're a good player on a healer, stealther, or high burst single target RDPS.

There's also the other elephant in the room that has changed the way players, premades, and guilds all play this game, possibly more than any change I've ever seen in RoR before, and that's the killboard. I love the idea of having more info available to us, and particularly love the recording of SC stats and city stats - but making character and guild KDAs publically available has created an alt + f4, don't want to die in SCs, don't want to fight in the lakes meta like I've never seen before. I also think it's one of the biggest factors in the absolute state of RvR these days, with half of destros leaders now being on a feckin joint discord network to coordinate because everyone is so afraid of losing fights now because their guild stats are publically available and they're afraid of looking weak/bad more than they care about just having fun in the game. It has also given people a fantastic tool for harassment and bullying which was already rife on this server and has only gotten worse. And myself nor my guild are absolutely not immune to it either, the killboard has absolutely changed the way I play and care about my stats in this game in a way I never thought it would, to the point where I literally don't do any content solo anymore, I don't invite my alts to my guild until they're out of T1 where they're less inclined to rack up deaths, the list goes on, even though I know it makes absolutely no sense - it's just like logging in WoW was for me.

And I know that this attitude is insanely pervasive in all of the high level guilds and groups in this game. I'd honestly bet my life on it being one of the main factors of the new attitude that has completely taken over this server

This is almost heart breaking. I had no clue so many were so worried about this type of thing, although i shouldn't be surprised. I was wondering why people were less likely to help in fights than they used to be.

[Aethilmar]

If we take it as face value people are getting their egos fed/bruised by the stats (and I have no doubt), then maybe they need to expose more stats to provide recognition for the other activities.

Total heals - SC
Total protection - SC
SC objective score

RvR heals
RvR protection
RvR boxes ran
RvR time spent in AAO
RvR kills in AAO
RvR kills while in Apathy
RvR time spent near mailbox (just for fun ... or is it?)
etc
etc
etc ...

We can even have more fun by going into "normalized" values e.g. X per SC or per minute spent in RvR.

On one hand it feeds even more into the stat obsession.

OTOH, if you provide ALL the stats then people can get a better picture of what is going on, define their own metrics for success and maybe just find the stat that makes them happy to play how they want to play and not how the "killboard" says they should play.

[Novokane]

wait, so you want me to sit out 15 minutes when we join 18 players and no healers?

[wanna993]

Spoiler:

.surrender isn't the issue, it's the nature of RoR scenarios being more one-sided than any MMO I've ever played before in my life.

In WoW for example, no matter how badly you're getting clapped in a battleground, you'll pretty much always be able to pick up kills and at least feel like you've got some chance of a comeback. This is because of the nature of the map design, which is massive spread out areas and multiple objectives with tons of line of sight opportunities - so there are always opportunities for fights with out of position enemies without their entire team landing on top of you - as well as healing range being the same as any other casters range, rather than 2-3x longer like it is in RoR, and often covers the length of the entire active fighting area in any RoR scenario.

Compare this to RoR where the vast majority of scenarios primarily revolve around one objective or fighting area, have very little line of sight to play around, and even if there is LoS - there's so much passive healing and aoe healing that goes off through LoS that it often doesn't even matter. As well as this there's guard, which makes it massively harder to punish DPS out of position as a tank can eat pretty much all of the damage for them. All of this combined leads to RoR being the only MMO I've ever played where when solo queuing you'll regularly see matches where the score is along the lines of 50 kills to 0 before one team eventually gives up because they literally have zero chance of making a comeback or denting the enemy team whatsoever. It's a game that literally requires coordination to win more often than not, and the enormous skill gap between good and bad players and how impenetrable a good 2/2/2 premade is in this game only exacerbates this even more.

Not really sure what the solution is though, the mechanics of RoR facilitate one sided matches to the point where you'd need to redesign most of the scenarios in the game and change the mechanics of how particularly healing works in scenarios to stop it from being such a dominating factor in who wins when it comes to pug vs pug matches. And these mechanics, particularly the extremely active role of tanks in comparison to other MMOs, are also what makes RoR stand out as such a unique MMO, so that's not exactly an easy task. That lad who analyses the killboard stats did one for scenarios again recently, and it said that what, 70% of scenarios are a *complete* steamroll in one direction? So of course people are going to want to surrender more often in this game. Solo queuing for SCs in RoR is quite literally the least fun you can have in a MMO most of the time unless you're a good player on a healer, stealther, or high burst single target RDPS.

There's also the other elephant in the room that has changed the way players, premades, and guilds all play this game, possibly more than any change I've ever seen in RoR before, and that's the killboard. I love the idea of having more info available to us, and particularly love the recording of SC stats and city stats - but making character and guild KDAs publically available has created an alt + f4, don't want to die in SCs, don't want to fight in the lakes meta like I've never seen before. I also think it's one of the biggest factors in the absolute state of RvR these days, with half of destros leaders now being on a feckin joint discord network to coordinate because everyone is so afraid of losing fights now because their guild stats are publically available and they're afraid of looking weak/bad more than they care about just having fun in the game. It has also given people a fantastic tool for harassment and bullying which was already rife on this server and has only gotten worse. And myself nor my guild are absolutely not immune to it either, the killboard has absolutely changed the way I play and care about my stats in this game in a way I never thought it would, to the point where I literally don't do any content solo anymore, I don't invite my alts to my guild until they're out of T1 where they're less inclined to rack up deaths, the list goes on, even though I know it makes absolutely no sense - it's just like logging in WoW was for me. And I know that this attitude is insanely pervasive in all of the high level guilds and groups in this game. I'd honestly bet my life on it being one of the main factors of the new attitude that has completely taken over this server

Fantastic post that explains why stomping is happening so often in RoR vs other games.
Sc's in this game are absolutely dogshit design. I swear the original Mythic team did not have a single good level designer because it shows in so many places in the game. From poorly designed maps (nordenwatch has same people as Warsong Gulch but is like 1/3 the size????) to absurd single mechanic **** that force people into a single blob fight (Black Fire Basin is such a **** map with almost 0 LOS in the middle). The newest map from the devs is slightly better with more than one objective (hand in is all at the same place though and the map is tiny but they reused existing assets). The poor map design exacerbates the disadvantages of the heavy group play needed in RoR.

The team based design from RoR also heavily diminishes the ability to show individual skill. As a solo dps in WoW you can easily outshine other players and even healers at some points (depends on patch/gear) because classes have much better design and tools to allow for said skill to shine. RoR doesn't have that and has a very simplistic CC immunity system (with abilities core to rotation that trigger those, who thought that was a good idea?) + AP system which puts everyone on a even playing field in terms of resource but makes healing endless and not limited to mana.

And we're not even talking about how much RR and gear come into play.
All the factors just make it that games can easily be very lopsided and make surrender a must have otherwise you'd see sc and game population dropping.
It also makes me laugh seeing all these people say "l2p" when you can very often see when a game is a loss within the first two minutes. I never see people give up and, if anything, many players are too stubborn and will vote no despite, as another poster said, having a 0v300 score.


I'm actually surprised many people would use the Killboard since it's just a useless **** measuring contest with 0 meaning. I get using an in game scoreboard during rvr/sc's but that's about it.
The only thing the killboard should be good for is the scenario tab to track win rates and shady things like discordant abuse or wintrading.

[Bozzax]

Surrender is needed as long as groups are prioritises and bypass queue time

[Stinkyweed]

I surrendered yesterday, and it felt good.

[Throlla]

Everytime im vs a premade as solo queue. the surrender option should be instant. Let premade play vs premades.

[lemao]

Everytime im vs a premade as solo queue. the surrender option should be instant. Let premade play vs premades.

Not enough premades, increase the rewards for them then.