Futility Strike vs Trivial blows

[Avernus]

So if you've got 40% crit chance you only hit me 20% of the time with a crit.

You do realize that your opponent's crit chance and chance to recieve critical damage from your "initiative" stat are different values? That means that if your chance to recieve crit is (it's just an example) 10% and you lvl your futile strikes to go past those 10%, you are just counter all this initiative debuffs (Yer Bleedin'!) or +chance to recieve crit (crimson death). But those huge 50%+ crit chance on sorc/BW is still 50%+. Thats why they don't really care about your futile strikes (unless they are low lvl).

[Scottx125]

So if you've got 40% crit chance you only hit me 20% of the time with a crit.

You do realize that your opponent's crit chance and chance to recieve critical damage from your "initiative" stat are different values? That means that if your chance to recieve crit is (it's just an example) 10% and you lvl your futile strikes to go past those 10%, you are just counter all this initiative debuffs (Yer Bleedin'!) or +chance to recieve crit (crimson death). But those huge 50%+ crit chance on sorc/BW is still 50%+. Thats why they don't really care about your futile strikes (unless they are low lvl).

That's why you run at around 300 initiative. Any more than that is just a waste. It's one of those weird stats that doesn't follow the same trend as main stats. The effectiveness of investing in it past 300 gives ever diminishing returns. But you have 300 ini + max FS. And even IF you take TB a BW is still going to be constantly critting you. All you're reducing is the bonus critical damage. Which isn't all that much. For example 100 hits at 300 base and 120 average crit damage ontop:

70% Crit -40% crit damage = 9000 normal damage + 34440 crit = 43440.
46% Crit -24% FS = 16200 normal damage + 24840 crit = 41040.

You end up taking more damage from the reduced crit damage. Not to mention any other effects that could be caused from crits such as tactic procs etc.

[Scottx125]

How did you calculate worth of crit chance as dps dealer? According to your calculations, taking ranged crit chance as SH would always be bad... I feel like it gives great burst with 2 dots, armor reduce and channel. Would i still be doing more dmg putting all those points to ws?

Oh btw, think of it this way as well. If a slayer takes Jagged edge with crit right? Let's say 33%. And that tactic does 600 damage. On paper that 600 damage is worth 600 * 5 STR (5 STR = 1 bonus dmg). So what you're getting is 3000 STR worth of dmg per target. It's also corporal so it avoids most negation. You might say well it only hits 33% of the time. Ok, so it's 1/3 of 3000 which is 1000 STR worth of damage. Crits that proc tactics that heal, do damage or provide modifier buffs are EXTREMELY powerful. So from that let's run through what my logic would be for a SH:

First you have to ask what your role is and what your gear gives. If you're doing ranged damage that's ballistics. If it's melee, then STR. Get that to near softcap. Then you ask ok, am I going full glass cannon or more survival? That is where you decide to go more wounds or WS. Then you have to ask ok aside from 3-4FS (which should always be run) am I going for Crit or more main stat? (same with gear, though it depends on this part) If you get any nice procs from crits. Stack crits on your remaining renown points, pots, the special tali and your gear. Get it as high as possible. If you don't get any nice procs. Go for full WS or STR, whatever you need. In regards to armour, if you don't need the crit, simply treat each 1% of crit on your gear as 9 of a main stat it relates to, so 1% melee crit as 9 STR, just choose the gear that gives you the most at that point.

[Avernus]

You end up taking more damage from the reduced crit damage. Not to mention any other effects that could be caused from crits such as tactic procs etc.

Do you know the difference between tunnel damage and burst damage? Your case is true for a prologed beating (if you can survive that). But your futile strikes are useless against the skills that already dealt critical damage. Which means that you should be fine in the long run but if your opponent do crit you (highly likely as BW/Sorc) you can be popped like a guy who invested nothing in his defence.

[Scottx125]

You end up taking more damage from the reduced crit damage. Not to mention any other effects that could be caused from crits such as tactic procs etc.

Do you know the difference between tunnel damage and burst damage? Your case is true for a prologed beating (if you can survive that). But your futile strikes are useless against the skills that already dealt critical damage. Which means that you should be fine in the long run but if your opponent do crit you (highly likely as BW/Sorc) you can be popped like a guy who invested nothing in his defence.

You know what you just said makes no sense right? First off, burst and sustain damage is irrelevant. If you have -20% crit hit chance. It's -20%. Doesn't matter if a Sorc blows you up in 5 seconds or 20 seconds. Their crit hit chance within the 5 second period and the 20 second period outside of any abilities they use to boost it is exactly the same just as it would be with -40% crit damage. If the sorc applies dots to you and then nukes you at the end of the time stamp, it's still the same crit chance. Only difference is the sorc is playing the class well and you're not reacting to it properly. Reduce crit doesn't save you from not playing your character properly. If I'm a slayer being kited for example by a Sorc, you don't just stand there allowing the sorc to timestamp you, hide behind something or break LOS. Wait for someone to cleanse or heal you and then when the sorc is too close or vulnerable, charge, slow, shatter limbs and then KD when you can and the sorc is dead.

And yes, even if in some cases you invest in max FS you're still going to melt. But that's a situational thing based on what you're facing. If it's 1v1 full glass cannon mega crit Sorc. Yes, as a melee class you're probably going to get nuked, even if you invest in max FS or TB. Purely because that Sorc has specialised into 1v1 nuking. There's not much to do against that, except have a group or get the jump on them. The point of this thread is asking is FS better than TB. And for damage reduction, it absolutely is. The math proves it.

[Zuxoor]

Yeah, tell this "average stuff" to the BW/SC who's putting you on the 5s timer? Are you gonna die or not? You are not a city champ to tank 100 hits like its nothing, you can die from 1 "balanced" combo from BW/Sorc (unless you are deftard tank or something like that). And they have their own huge crit chance so they can shove your 0% from futile strikes back into your "average math".

It's good to have 0% but if you want to live a long life - pick both unless you are not planning to take hits at all (especially hard for order with all this destro pullfest). Or you have a REALLY reliable teammates (and your healers will probably force you to do it anyway...).

You know 0% crit just means you're not giving them extra chance to crit? At that point it's whatever their base crit is. So if I have 0% chance to be crit and they have 50% crit chance. They're still gonna crit you 50% of the time. On my WP I run -20% crit chance. So if you've got 40% crit chance you only hit me 20% of the time with a crit. The meta has always been Avoidance > Crit reduction > Stats. So if you can't get block/parry whatever high enough, then you go for crit reduction, and then main stats like toughness, armour, wounds etc.

Sorry i dont understand, isnt 0% being chance to be crit max you can do with futile strikes? So then bw will use his own his % that is 40%? How can you have -20% and use it unless it is initaive debuff and you need extra to keep it at 0? Or does it go directly to -20% and just shows at 0%? I thought 0 is the hardcap.

[Gladiolix]

Yeah, tell this "average stuff" to the BW/SC who's putting you on the 5s timer? Are you gonna die or not? You are not a city champ to tank 100 hits like its nothing, you can die from 1 "balanced" combo from BW/Sorc (unless you are deftard tank or something like that). And they have their own huge crit chance so they can shove your 0% from futile strikes back into your "average math".

It's good to have 0% but if you want to live a long life - pick both unless you are not planning to take hits at all (especially hard for order with all this destro pullfest). Or you have a REALLY reliable teammates (and your healers will probably force you to do it anyway...).

You know 0% crit just means you're not giving them extra chance to crit? At that point it's whatever their base crit is. So if I have 0% chance to be crit and they have 50% crit chance. They're still gonna crit you 50% of the time. On my WP I run -20% crit chance. So if you've got 40% crit chance you only hit me 20% of the time with a crit. The meta has always been Avoidance > Crit reduction > Stats. So if you can't get block/parry whatever high enough, then you go for crit reduction, and then main stats like toughness, armour, wounds etc.

Sorry i dont understand, isnt 0% being chance to be crit max you can do with futile strikes? So then bw will use his own his % that is 40%? How can you have -20% and use it unless it is initaive debuff and you need extra to keep it at 0? Or does it go directly to -20% and just shows at 0%? I thought 0 is the hardcap.

You can stack ctbc to the negatives, which eat up opponents chance to crit you. Meaning if enemy has 35% crit chance, and your chance to be critted is -15%, then his real crit chance against you is 20%.

[Avernus]

You can stack ctbc to the negatives, which eat up opponents chance to crit you. Meaning if enemy has 35% crit chance, and your chance to be critted is -15%, then his real crit chance against you is 20%.

I'm sorry but it sounds like complete nonsence to me, unless someone from the staff can confirm that this is true.

[Avernus]

Sorry i dont understand, isnt 0% being chance to be crit max you can do with futile strikes?

Yes. You need more only if you are really afraid of initiative debuff/+incoming crit chance debuff.

[Avernus]

1. You know what you just said makes no sense right? First off, burst and sustain damage is irrelevant. If you have -20% crit hit chance. It's -20%. Doesn't matter if a Sorc blows you up in 5 seconds or 20 seconds. Their crit hit chance within the 5 second period and the 20 second period outside of any abilities they use to boost it is exactly the same just as it would be with -40% crit damage. If the sorc applies dots to you and then nukes you at the end of the time stamp, it's still the same crit chance.

The point of this thread is asking is FS better than TB. And for damage reduction, it absolutely is. The math proves it.

Really? Ok, i'll explain then. If its sustained damage - it's not supposed to kill you right away and that means that your math has a chance to prove it's worth. But in the case of burst damage, your bet is that the burst will fail to crit (and will be failed, obviously). Trivial blows, howewer, does not reduce the chance of burst's crit chance, but reduce its strength. And, since the sorc/BW is "highly likely" (tip. its irony) not to crit you with your 0% crit, it does increase your chance to survive the burst, better than with futile strikes. But it does not mean that FS is the best answer - it means that both FS and TB are useful, but you must keep in mind what kind of damage you want to reduce (and from whom) when you use them.