Is reward model driving current population inbalance

[Zxul]

Think of live- pug could very much fight back there. Core issue of RoR- here it was decided that it is a team based game, and you must team up to achieve anything. Solo oriented abilities/builds were nerfed, while team oriented abilities/synergies were buffed. With the expected result, that unless you play in a very specific way- 2/2/2, max team play and synergy- you can't fight back against someone that does.

No they could not, take off the rose tinted glasses.
Is it not weird that during the whole last event the majority of 6 man premades stacked 1/3/2 ranged or even 1/4/1 setups with ranged DPS?

Pretty sure I was pug, being usually unteamed and all, and yes in fights that I was involved in premades were killed.

And who exactly cares about 6v6, which is a tiny minority of population which doesn't matters. Especially in thread specifically about rvr.

Simplest example, see the st rdps builds, and all the nerfs which they got. In RoR sov st rdps won't be able to solo burst a guarded and healed ruin mdps- which would counter melee train and premades very nicely.

So one ruin geared melee dps kills a healed and guarded sov ranged dps in the current iteration? Furthermore if you manage to play the game, your healer will stagger the ruin melee dps healer, while your tank punt the ruin dps or their tank away and all of the sudden you can burst him from 100-0 in a GCD on ranged. Legit skill issue. I guess you never played against exodus ranged comp.

See above- this thread is about rvr, not about 6v6 which is a minor niche which a very tiny percentage of population actually cares about.

It isn't about l2p, getting good, etc- it is about in RoR all the ways of play and builds which could counter the premades were intentionally nerfed, with the expected results that we see today.

Yes think about the solo players in a game based around 24 man wbs. Save the pugs who get farmed. Give back RR 100 and ojira and the hidden buffs, so that people can 3 man PUG wbs by facerolling something that usually requires a 6 man right now, surely that will be healthy for the server. The reason why 90% of the server is getting farmed is because they have no idea what they are doing, I still see people who press HTL in melee engagements, I still see people who use AoE punts on CD or punt ranged dps away from the melee train, people how pop focused mind and turn their back to mara when he pulls, Engi/magus who spam mine/infestation for "damage", there is so much free root immunity you can get from your average ORvR player it is insane. Not having a clue about what you are doing is a skill issue.

Making stuff up really doesn't proves your point. Only point in which 100 could actually survive vs even a team was during uber procs + hidden lvl 45 era, which got nerfed on live pretty fast. +there was some more then usual bugged lotd talis time, which once again got nerfed long before live went down.

Back to the point, whatever is the skill lvl of the server, it doesn't changes the fact that RoR specifically nerfed the non team meta builds which could deal with premades. Rdps nerfs- burst, kiting ability of rsw/rsh, being a good example.

[JohnnyWayne]

The thread is about rewards influence on player behavior. Kind of what the title says.
Balance of game find another thread please.
The part regardsing why destro city is permanatly sigeded is in scope as that is diown to order group being rewarded for doing pve and rewarded with pvp rewards

Also good you have ideas for the campaign but also another thread.

It should be obvious that some do not enjoy the pvdoor , zerging ,,, that the current game has degenerated to so let’s try identify the impact rewarding these player behavior has so things can be done.

And the point being made is, its not the reward system that influences player behaviour, but the current state of balance in the game. Because order wants to fight you aswell, but on terms that makes it possible for them with all the **** thats thrown about from destro. Time to pull our head out of your arse. Smh....

[normanis]

B) remove rewards from zone, including forts and LoTD where the aao average is too lobsided

didnt understand word lobsided. u mean if defenders are few ppl and attackers are more(lets say 100+aao). than no rewards to attackers? ppl will start abuse it aspecialy in lotd. they will leave lotd and no rewards to destro. or for example eu time zone order cant fight with destro megazerg guilds and they just log off so aao reach critical point where u dont get loot? i think noone will play that or start abuse it. its bad design. or explain better.

[Garamore]

order cant take open fights, they defend wc or keep.

Defending wc a much better strat than afking in keep incase there is a siege. You get the benefit of cannons and your realm mates can find and support you. You will also find that you get kills as the other side will push in eventually. From there you can build and fight. If its even aao and half the realm is afk in a keep and the other half trying to fight then those trying tofight are outnumbered 2-1 and all destro are hunting them. If there is no bag roll for keep defence then might as well fight from wc.

Totally get that pug vs premade ends in a faceroll whether they have gtdc or not. This isnt what this thread is about.

The lowest point ive seen so far in my very recent order experience was a wb leader that afked in a keep for 30 mins to wait for the defence who then decided to port out and not defend as they thought they would loose........................

[Acidic]

Spoiler:

so this is excuse to not siege, byt come and tell on forum why there is so many invitebla city sieges than aldorf? maby because u all are too bisy wc camp?
give coockies also to order miror clases i would also spam gtdc nonstop with 10sec cd (acording to forum)
so basicly if order refuse play your t1 game wc camping u come here on forum and make threads how keep sieges are bad. and why ranged biased order are hiding in keep??? maby because of bugged pulls and mindless zerg? gives us also bugged pulls. why only 1 side has upper hand in keep and ather dont have. this is unaceptable.
even your sistem will be approved, what does its mean. constant wc camping. (like now is diferent), u build like in t1 points toward 100% and zone is locked. go next zone and camp wc nonstop. than another. no mater is it destro or order they will do it.
i reaveal my plan how should look like pvp with keeps
in first i whant to say previous keep lord sutem was nice (control objects, lord deal more damage)
0 rank - no bonuses . just keep defences no oil no engine no respawn
1rank- oil, spawn in keep no ather bonuses like engineering canons/rams
2rank - oil/spawn/all engineering (limited)
3rank - all previous bonuses + more munnition to canons . no pasdoor using as attacker
4/5 - all previous bonuses + godlike lord
so basicly enemy will try stop u from ranking keep, to make it easer for tham. here comes all open field fights. batle objectives controls, more obejctives u control fatter tick of boxes and stronger ranking keep. like 1 obj- no xpierence to rank keep. 2 objects - 100/ 3 - 150 and 4 give - 400 per box
attacking side for taking x rank keep take better rr and bags than taking 0 star.
gold start drop after 2 stars.
0 - star white
1star -blue
and so on.
atleast its my point of view.
atmoment its not like that its 1 sided, or lotd clones. and we all know who win in lotd fights. order dont have keeps there just wc.

The thread is about rewards influence on player behavior. Kind of what the title says.
Balance of game find another thread please.
The part regardsing why destro city is permanatly sigeded in in scope as that is diown to order group being rewarded for doing pve and rewarded with pvp rewards

Also good you have ideas for the campaign but also another thread.

It should be obvious that some do not enjoy the pvdoor , zerging ,,, that the current game has degenerated to so let’s try identify the impact rewarding these player behavior has so things can be done.

[/spoiler]
-The thread is about rewards influence on player behavior. Kind of what the title says.-
actually it is already ingame , slack in wc. 1 time entered rvr and after get killed, u 2 hours guarding mailbox. no rewards.
player behaviour? u mean what. not going in open field where is constant wc camping. or giving free kills to attackers?
i am not english byt your title says - is reward model driving current population inbalance-
my answers are very in theme. about keep rank system, and rewards. ppl siege empty keeps because no punishment, no defenders. defenders cant spawn in keep to defend it. its driving population away. why would destro even try to get into keep if all posterns are guarded. in na timezone. they waiting evening when destro wbs log so they can do same. if u read all thread ppl before me already told it. its boring system atm. favour zerg.
u adding loot/rr counts on those who do more damage. its already ingame. cant tell u exact byt in forum some said bigger dps u get loot and rr more than ather who hited that target. if its works on 1 person its works also in wb vs wb, and outside wb.

Appreciate that language issue and respect it and will make sure I focus on your meaning and not details.

The current system does favor organised warbands yes, but in my opinion the system is not sever enough as organised warbands are only slight irritated about followers (some actually seem to encourage it) the thing I believe is if the system is harder it will become noticeable to organised warbands to the point they slip the followers. I don’t see a great issues with 2 pug bands running together on des or order, issue is when organised thing is embedded in the pug blob.

That said I hate the pvdoor crew being given pvp rewards probably more than zergs

[normanis]

This is not the topic, that is trying to discus balance.

[/quote]
or u just dont like answers.
balance is evrewhere because this is not skyrim or any ather solo rpg. this is mmorpg. where play many ppl togather. so this concerns all tipes of gameplay. where are not npc.
p.s i understand u whant avoid rampage and gtdc topics here. byt u dont get that u cnat avoid such talks. because ppl are diferent and they have their own that called reward system vs my time. at moment rewarded is zerging that why ppl zerg. because its rewarded - no punishemnts.

[normanis]

The thread is about rewards influence on player behavior. Kind of what the title says.
Balance of game find another thread please.
The part regardsing why destro city is permanatly sigeded in in scope as that is diown to order group being rewarded for doing pve and rewarded with pvp rewards

Also good you have ideas for the campaign but also another thread.

It should be obvious that some do not enjoy the pvdoor , zerging ,,, that the current game has degenerated to so let’s try identify the impact rewarding these player behavior has so things can be done.

[/spoiler]
-The thread is about rewards influence on player behavior. Kind of what the title says.-
actually it is already ingame , slack in wc. 1 time entered rvr and after get killed, u 2 hours guarding mailbox. no rewards.
player behaviour? u mean what. not going in open field where is constant wc camping. or giving free kills to attackers?
i am not english byt your title says - is reward model driving current population inbalance-
my answers are very in theme. about keep rank system, and rewards. ppl siege empty keeps because no punishment, no defenders. defenders cant spawn in keep to defend it. its driving population away. why would destro even try to get into keep if all posterns are guarded. in na timezone. they waiting evening when destro wbs log so they can do same. if u read all thread ppl before me already told it. its boring system atm. favour zerg.
u adding loot/rr counts on those who do more damage. its already ingame. cant tell u exact byt in forum some said bigger dps u get loot and rr more than ather who hited that target. if its works on 1 person its works also in wb vs wb, and outside wb.

Appreciate that language issue and respect it and will make sure I focus on your meaning and not details.

The current system does favor organised warbands yes, but in my opinion the system is not sever enough as organised warbands are only slight irritated about followers (some actually seem to encourage it) the thing I believe is if the system is harder it will become noticeable to organised warbands to the point they slip the followers. I don’t see a great issues with 2 pug bands running together on des or order, issue is when organised thing is embedded in the pug blob.

That said I hate the pvdoor crew being given pvp rewards probably more than zergs

solution is simple after 24ppl cap any ather will increase incoming damage
so 48 - 33% more incoming amge to all grp.
lets say 2 pug wbs face 6 men. all 2pug wb take 33%more damage.
they are not rewarded by sticking togather.
debuff time can be 1-3min long

[normanis]

order cant take open fights, they defend wc or keep.

Defending wc a much better strat than afking in keep incase there is a siege. You get the benefit of cannons and your realm mates can find and support you. You will also find that you get kills as the other side will push in eventually. From there you can build and fight. If its even aao and half the realm is afk in a keep and the other half trying to fight then those trying tofight are outnumbered 2-1 and all destro are hunting them. If there is no bag roll for keep defence then might as well fight from wc.

Totally get that pug vs premade ends in a faceroll whether they have gtdc or not. This isnt what this thread is about.

The lowest point ive seen so far in my very recent order experience was a wb leader that afked in a keep for 30 mins to wait for the defence who then decided to port out and not defend as they thought they would loose........................

i can surly same about wc. 100% same what u said about keep.
afk/guard mailbox. u have even flymaster there. 2 canons , wb leader go smoke while athers fight.
only minus wc camping dont give rolls. and u have also guards who dont move like on live. its booring. i never like wc camps. i skip tham.
wc has buff for defences (byt how far it is i dont know) or its removed. have no info there.
back to topic player behavior is hm i will get sovy anyway so why should i sweat.or bother withit. i think previous crest system was beter. ecept forts system.
like rvr is medals for decimator-invader city siege is for endgame. this should stayed. maby here was problem. that too easy pease get endgame gear . cant say its 100% problem . (byt it would lead to class balance anyway)

[Rapzel]

And who exactly cares about 6v6, which is a tiny minority of population which doesn't matters. Especially in thread specifically about rvr.

There are no groups in RvR? With the current population you run into more 6-12 mans than you run into full wbs.

See above- this thread is about rvr, not about 6v6 which is a minor niche which a very tiny percentage of population actually cares about.

First of all you present a scenario where it is 1 rdps in sov vs. 1 mdps in ruin with heal and guard, then when I call you out your response is "doesn't matter in RvR". Second of all punts and CC is still a huge part in WB play and in particular in wb vs wb, but then again PUGs.

Making stuff up really doesn't proves your point. Only point in which 100 could actually survive vs even a team was during uber procs + hidden lvl 45 era, which got nerfed on live pretty fast. +there was some more then usual bugged lotd talis time, which once again got nerfed long before live went down.

Back to the point, whatever is the skill lvl of the server, it doesn't changes the fact that RoR specifically nerfed the non team meta builds which could deal with premades. Rdps nerfs- burst, kiting ability of rsw/rsh, being a good example.

Making up stuff? What have I made up? A good 6 man can take down a full open WB, I've taken down certain guilds 18 mans with a 6 man and I am not even good at the game. Encouraging an even larger power creep is going to lower the amount of people required to kill a PUG WB, that cannot be too difficult to grasp?

What kiting ability of rSW? rSH had a tactic nerfed. What has been removed is Unshakable Focus which sure is a huge nerf sure, but how is that going to save PUGS from premades?

The best part is that you disregard the punts and CC part in my previous statement and try to make it sound like punting and CC is just for 6vs6, and in the next sentence you write "whatever is the skill lvl of the server" just proving my point that the majority including you have no idea what buttons you are pressing.

[Culexus]

This whole Order pvdoor situation started after the destro nerf patch a few years ago and has just snowballed into what we have today. Anyone else remember how long Order were farming 1* ICs for? As this has been going on for so long, it's created an expectation of how the game should play out and a lazy, conflict averse attitude towards RvR.

These Order players now expect to zerg empty zones with only token opposition from PUG Destro groups that they can overwhelm with numbers, giving them the illusion of a fight. Organised destro warbands put a spanner in the works of this, which results in all this forum qq and hiding in keeps for hours. This also creates a player skill imbalance where the PUG zergers aren't used to fighting in the lakes which gives them even more of an incentive to hide in keeps where they can at least hope for a funnel to get kills.

I don't think there's anything that can be done to change this mentality to be honest. Whatever percentage of the player base these players are will always find a way to get the most rewards for the least effort. If Destro starts zerging and fort farming the way Order does now these players will just switch sides to keep up the easy farm.

As for the whole PUGs vs Organised thing. This has been going on since live and will always be part of the game. Difference is the low population of the server makes it stand out way more than it did on live. Live had way more BiS organised warbands, but also way more PUGS that could use their strength in numbers (sometimes hundreds strong) to eventually bring the warbands down. This gave the warbands the fun of farming loads of PUGS, and the PUGs the the fun of killing the BiS warbands. No amount of balance changes are gonna make an uncoordinated PUG warband be able to take on an organised guild warband. It's purely a numbers game and always has been.