"Pattrik's Essay on Class Balance"

[IVendettaI]

It does indeed last for 5 seconds, but it's spammable. Now, stacking it with Wall of Darting Steel is not easy, yes. But it remains possible.

After all, as I said, all tanks need a buff (I was harsher on the SM, but he deserves a buff too).

Eagle's flight (25% parry) does not stack with wall of darting steel.

As for SM vs BO comparison just keep in mind the population balance as well, there is 3-4 black orcs for every swordmaster on this server. I agree that BO deserves to be buffed and need some sort of group utility added but SM is squishy for a tank and that's the price for having better utility and more versatile damage channel / spirit). The best tank classes remain Chosen/Kotbs for their respective faction.

Yes, it has the double armor debuff, indeed. But apart from the Bring 'Em On + Keep it Goin'! build to spam Da Big Un', it doesn't have more impact than other offtanks. Yes, it spams AoE, so it deals damage. It takes two tactics to use a spell, though. Not great.

2H BO singletarget crits and burst can't be matched by any other tank class( including SM) vs squishy targets.

6. GtdC pull is a slot machine of either being useful and pulling heals/dps or handing out immunity to tanks that got pulled 10 feet. There are definitely issues with how it behaves in keeps that cannot be denied. I'd advocate for Rampage and GtdC to be completely disabled around keeps as they both completely ruin funnels."

Okay, so there's a slight "Destro bias," but in the end, you clearly agree with me?

Okay, why not!

The strength of Rampage is precisely in funnels and GTDC excels in the open rvr lakes, disable rampage and GTDC in funnels would be a huge destro buff and big order nerf, not balanced at all.

Having said that, the main issue with slayer vs choppa is clear. Both classes have too much power relative to the other dps classes in their respective faction and deserve to be adequately nerfed for a long time. This is long overdue and the ''meta'' need to change to not revolve around these two ''berserker'' classes when we discuss faction balance.

GTDC is an abomination and a pug nightmare, makes the game unfun for Order. There is a reason why Choppa is the most played dps class in the game by far( this is an issue since the game for many hours of the day do not have organized gameplay and pugs IS the game, except for prime times etc). It is an abusive and still broken ability ( it screws the camera of the victim, seem to sometimes ignore parry defences and is still bugged pulling people through walls and stairs).

Rampage is ridiculous since it can trivialize tank defences, it need an adequate nerf as well. Instead in the manifesto for some weird unknown reason the devs have decided to gut marauders and white lions aoe build and leave these two overperfoming classes . I hope that is only temporarily until ''real'' class changes.

"Eagle's flight (25% parry) does not stack with Wall of Darting Steel.
Regarding the SM vs. BO comparison, please also consider population balance. There are 3-4 Black Orcs for every Swordmaster on this server. I agree that BO deserves to be buffed and needs some sort of group utility added. However, the SM is relatively squishy for a tank, and that's the trade-off for having better utility and a more versatile damage channel, especially with spirit damage. The best tank classes remain Chosen/KOTBS for their respective factions."

Chosen/KOTBS are not the best; they are the easiest to play and master, which naturally makes their influence indisputable. The SM is more vulnerable than a SnB tank, that's true, but compared to all other 2H tanks, it is clearly superior. It falls slightly behind a SnB tank and cannot use Hold the Line, but it is still very effective, particularly in dealing spirit damage.

"2H BO single-target crits and burst can't be matched by any other tank class, including SM, against squishy targets."

Crit is the worst stat for a BO and should be avoided in a build as it's counterproductive. While the double armor debuff is useful, it's on a 60-second cooldown to have both. In contrast, an SM can debuff spirit constantly and deal with targets at 20% resistance or even less. In reality, I'm not convinced that BO has a significant advantage in killing squishy targets.

"The strength of Rampage is precisely in funnels, and GTDC excels in open RVR lakes. Disabling Rampage and GTDC in funnels would be a huge Destro buff and a significant Order nerf, which wouldn't be balanced at all."

Again, I disagree, but it seems like you all believe that Order tanks don't know how to funnel, as if we're playing different games. Please provide concrete arguments. Hold the Line is the same ability for all tanks.

"Having said that, the main issue with Slayer vs. Choppa is clear. Both classes have too much power relative to the other DPS classes in their respective factions and deserve to be adequately nerfed. This is long overdue, and the 'meta' needs to change to not revolve around these two 'berserker' classes when we discuss faction balance."

One more than the other, in my opinion, so you're right, it should be addressed properly. Especially since Choppa seems to cause you frustration, and GTDC doesn't have a significant impact in a fight since it's not used, being mainly useful for grabbing when in retreat.

"GTDC is an abomination and a PUG nightmare, making the game unfun for Order. There is a reason why Choppa is the most played DPS class in the game by far. This is an issue, considering that the game often lacks organized gameplay during many hours of the day, and PUGs make up a significant part of the game, especially outside prime times. It is an abusive and still broken ability, causing issues such as disrupting the victim's camera, sometimes seeming to ignore parry defenses, and occasionally pulling people through walls and stairs."

Yes, so I was right, it's about frustration, not something rational. Choppa is not played more than Slayer; it's quite similar, so Choppa is not "by far" the most played class. It doesn't seem to ignore the opponent's defense. If you want to understand your real stats against a well-geared Choppa, just check your .getstat, and you might understand where the problem comes from.

"Rampage is ridiculous since it can trivialize tank defenses and needs an adequate nerf. However, in the manifesto, for some unknown reason, the devs have decided to gut Marauders and White Lions' AoE builds and leave these two overperforming classes. I hope this is only temporary until 'real' class changes."

I agree (naturally).

[Sulorie]

With every additional post it smells more like a well hidden troll thread, while most participants disagree with the OPs statements.
The OP doesn't want to discuss anything with factual arguments, this thread is on the level of /ad balance discussions.

[IVendettaI]

Biggest destro bias post I have ever seen. Many things are correct, such as BO being complete joke, SM being better than other ORDER tank, rampage being oppressive, but some others... shows complete lack of understanding of different things.

It seems like OP only plays BO. Natural predator of such class is slayer, so i guess "Nerf the scissors, rock is fine" - Paper, probably.

he biggest bias is to completely ignore everything I've said because I play a Black Orc, and I'm indeed a victim of the abuse that is Rampage.

I provided concrete examples without making myself the focus of the issue.

I made what I consider to be a fair comparison of the classes, admitted that Rampage is a problem for all Destruction tanks, and not just a problem for me.

But for that, you had to read!

Once again...: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD7BcmAOqfs

[IVendettaI]

Sad that you dont talk about Morale Pump ;P

Destru:
Chosen (self)
Black Orc (self)
Zealot (self)
Shaman (grp)
Squig Herder (self)
Sorc (self)
Witche Elf (grp)

Order:
White Lion (grp)
Arch Mage (grp)
Witch Hunter (grp)
Bright Wizard (self)

Just Mirror all Classes and everybody is fine then or?
There are a lot of good/bad things on both sides but only ppl playing both factions will get that.

Yes, make your topic and tell us about your knowledge

Always the same, "I know but you don't know" blah blah blah...

[IVendettaI]

Largely disagree that rampage is a problem and Drop Da Basher is indeed better since it works for all players and can't be countered and yes im well aware slayers have the same ability...it should be toned down on the slayers end imo but for Choppa it is essential to keep it how it is.

"Drop Da Basha is indeed better since it works for all players and can't be countered.

You need to READ what people are saying before you WRITE, my friend. Rampage is last on the priority list; it's almost impossible to remove it in a fight. And why wouldn't Rampage work on all players? What you're saying doesn't make sense.

You are biased or just missed his/her point. You debuff enemy block/parry of your own team to connect hits more reliable. Rampage only helps the individual slayer player, not all other melees like tanks and non-slayer assist DD.

Rampage itself isn't the problem, because not many non-tank classes stack parry or avoidance in general. Rampage becomes broken, when tanks can't avoid guard damage. This is what makes tanks melt along their guard target.
Let tanks avoid guard damage caused by slayer attacks with rampage buff and it will be fine.

The Slayer has Numbing Strike. End of the discussion.

You indeed should read. The Slayer does indeed have a personal ability that makes them unkillable and fundamentally more powerful than any melee DPS in the game, along with the same ability as the Choppa that lasts for 10 seconds and debuffs a tank for everyone. It's not stronger.

Melee DPS also have every interest in stacking parry to avoid getting melted in close combat... But I guess that must be secondary when you kill a Warband in 2 seconds, indeed!

[Xameleon]

To extend my previous post, your knowledge about heal balance just confirms my suspicion about you playing destro and only one role. You even pointed it out yourself and you should be able to see the filter bubble you live in. You see your class and your issues but dont understand that this is a complex system with a lot of balance valves you can try to adjust with different outcomes. You have no clue about the actual healer balance and it shows. Order is ahead on most heals except for AM/Schaman for various reasons.

100% agree on every part of that post. It seems like the guy played some healers on order side (and not only healers) and experienced some toxic choppa/mara pull "screw you in particular" moment.
GTDC should go. ST pulls should be fixed with range check on the end of a cast. Order should get ST pull without pet requirement. Range should be nerfed to 40ft AT MOST, better 30-35ft. This will make WL stronger and choppa weaker, so they will need nerfs and buffs to offset this.

OP said about destro side being much more fun. As a healer main, i have two RR80+ healers order side + RR70+ tank and dps. Recently started lvling up DoK. It's not even funny how much more enjoyment I get from DoK gameplay compared to WP. It's not about class differences. It's about not being 20% slowed permanently(thanks to covenant of Celerity). It's about not being randomly ST pulled from 100ft by mara. It's about not being AoE KDd once in 20 seconds. And finally, it's about not getting pulled by choppa in melee blob.

Positioning in this game is the key. Abilities that disrupt you positioning are extremely strong. Abilities that disrupt positioning of many people in short period of time like AoE slows, AoE KD, GTDC are the most broken ones. That is exactly what makes order obnoxious to play. Not because order classes are plain less fun to play.

[JohnnyWayne]

Personally I'd cap all defensive stats at 75% and remove rampage. Get choppas ID instead of GTDC (that skill has to go), move chop fasta to BO and mirror ww. Remove the exhaust on the ap reg skill and find something new for chop fasters slot. Slayer would get an no exhaust ap regen skill where rampage was.

You're not recommending anything; you're passing judgment.

???????

And you are right, you have no idea how the whole system works. One dimensional player with one dimensional playstyle. Not just that, you even defend your ignorance.

Immortal levels??????????? No, you're just talking nonsense. By the way, Rampage is not meant to destroy the basic funnels (except potentially for a bus of Slayers, which is not supposed to be NORMAL). Order can funnel just as well as Destruction, and if that's not the case, I want concrete examples, not just an assertion straight out of thin air. It would be more sincere than your cross-realm hypocrisy.

I have said it before, contrary to destro, order has ONE class with a channel defense. That is parry channel on 2h SM. You can guard a target and stay behind with no chance of ever getting damaged with defensives pushed to above 130%. I won't say it again.

Okay? I didn't understand where you were going with this, but okay.

I can help you: You are only seeing a small farme of a system thats way more complex. Which is why I say, go play order and equip a character to bis.

Grudge and Hatred are the same; you generate them naturally when you get hit, and when your defensive target gets hit too.

Pretty sure my BG generates hatred when IT its a target.

I believe that the most closed-minded people are those who claim to play in both factions. They are "one-sided," they don't want the game to change, even though they know (just like you) that there are balance issues.

Thats flat out a lie. You even responded to my suggestions for change. And they were more radical than what was proposed by others here.

[IVendettaI]

I haven't mentioned any spells... WP = Warrior Priest, Salv = Salvation tree, Spec = If you're running Salv, Grace or Wrath specialisation trees. Everything else is commonly used within the game, discord and forums which you should be familiar with.

Yes, alright, the judgment wasn't necessary. I didn't understand, I'm not English. I'm already making an effort to express myself in your language. You want me to express myself in French and be 100% comfortable with my explanations while you rely on translation?
Je le fais maintenant si tu veux et ça ne va pas être drôle pour toi

Now, you believe it's a mistake to compare 1:1, fair enough. But don't we need to start by comparing counterparts to each other before confronting them with the rest? Because saying:

"WP Salv is great in most content, not ideal in kiting fights but it works."

Not ideal for kiting, but compared to what? In my opinion, the DoK/WP compensates with its medium armor, which other healers don't have.

"Grace, a bad choice for ORVR. It works okay in small scale, cities, and PVE, but that's it. It's a high-risk, low-reward spec as it does low damage and okay healing (salv is better). It's also a shame you can't hybridize this spec properly between casted healing and melee damage."

I have a DoK shield, and I don't find it bad in ORVR. But I think it's much more a matter of personal preference than a consensus.

"Finally Wrath. Useless in pretty much all forms of content. Does poor healing, does mediocre damage, doesn't bring anything useful to groups/WBs that other classes in their primary spec can already do better."

Not well-informed on this one, but yes, I'm aware it's not as good as DoK DPS. However, there are very few DoK DPS players because it clearly doesn't appeal to everyone either.

Was trying to help you but whatever..

1. Compared to other healers, WPs are tankier sure but the whole point of kiting is to not get physically engaged. WP can only cast HoTs on the move which is a problem in med-high pressure kiting situations, and stopping to heal might get you caught and killed. RP for example is a perfect kiting healer same with AM. And whilst AM can't cast some of it's spells on the move it can drop puddle to allow them to retreat.

2. On order Grace is not a good choice in ORVR. Why? Because to survive in ORVR you need to build defensively, consequently you also need STR to do enough damage to heal decently. And if you're out of range the only decent heal you have is Sacrifice. The whole point of Grace in the meta is combining a bit of ST damage pressure with healing. So therefore the only way you're gonna be doing decent healing as a defensive Grace WP is if you hunt down squigs in the middle of the ORVR blob fest (not practical or reliable). And in sieges.. You're mostly useless. The healing/damage is decent as a full STR build but then you're super squishy in ORVR. So it's not viable.

3. Dual wield would make it better, especially with the auto attack tactic. But it still lacks something. It either needs to be an offensive support actually debuffing enemies. Or have it be more of the DPS focused healer being super squishy but also hitting hard and doing good heals (high risk high reward). Right now it's in a weird state where it seems the devs don't even know what they want to do with it.

If you say so

[IVendettaI]

To extend my previous post, your knowledge about heal balance just confirms my suspicion about you playing destro and only one role. You even pointed it out yourself and you should be able to see the filter bubble you live in. You see your class and your issues but dont understand that this is a complex system with a lot of balance valves you can try to adjust with different outcomes. You have no clue about the actual healer balance and it shows. Order is ahead on most heals except for AM/Schaman for various reasons.

Overall, from all archetypes, well played tanks have the most impact on a battle. They are the strongest, not the weakest archetype in the game. They increase the effect of defensives stacking exponentially.

While I agree that BO need a rework and certainly a helping hand, rampage is not the culprit you make it out to be. Rampage is compared to GTDC because they are inherently different but serve the same purpose in funnel situations. Rampage breaks the damage immunity of destro tanks in funnels, especially when guarding a dps. GTDC pulls out tanks so that a sufficiently strong blob can damage them down to stop them from using M4s during a push. It is the same effect just at different points in time. Mostly destro is just too dense to understand how powerful of a tool GTDC really is because the are playing their characters as one dimensional as order characters are designed.
Contrary to GTDC rampage is useful in non zerg fights like in Sc's and thats where I'd say the imbalance shows most in the statistics (with slayers having the highest average kd paired with certain russian groups sync queueing on order). In open RVR on the other hand, GTDC is superior, the ability to soften up frontlines and pull people into a aoe melee blob is extremely strong. Your claim that you "randomly" pull people is also not true, a skilled player will position himself in a way that he can target for certain people to be pulled. In a zerg situation you can take on anyone anyway so why do you care who you pull. A pull in a zerg is a death sentence against a skilled enemy.

I still say, remove both and mirror classes more closly. Now lets disect some of your statements.

Order players complain about "grab abuse." But if you're getting "grab abuse," I'm sorry to say it like this, but you're just not good players. When you see Choppas in GTDC and you stand at the edge of the Praag fort like novices, it's not "grab abuse"; you're just novices, to put it plainly. You need to reevaluate yourselves.

I can return that statement directly to you. Play order. See how it is. You have no clue. Destro life is so much easier in that regard and all these pulls create a toxic gameplay experience for order.

GTDC is generally used to attract fleeing players who had already lost the battle. Grabs don't happen in the middle of fights.

Another "you have no clue" point. I have explained how to use it properly before.

Just the Slayer alone explains the 80% win rate of Order when you consider that Choppa and Slayer are the two most played DPS.

You pulled the statistics for that win rate out of your arse. Simply not true.

30 seconds when most fights in RvR last a maximum of 10 seconds... Isn't that excessive? Especially considering that it's a buff, so if the Slayer gets stunned, he keeps Rampage, right?

In that case, rampage is no issue. See how you have no idea how to set up an actual rampage burst? You have to get to yellow rage, then drop it with rampage, then get to yellow again, set up dots in the meantime and then you can start bursting. That alone are around 20+ seconds of preparation. More than that - to get damage out you usually can't wait until you are in red to maximize damage output. So slayers will use retribution + rampage in yellow, where as choppas will use bring it on in full red. That is a 25% dmg difference and outside of funnels, with proper positioning and targeting, will have a greater effect. ID on the other hand is something choppas lack and I'd argue they need it to balance the classes.

Some want to defend the Black Ork by saying that he can achieve 100% "mitigation" (with everything I've said about BO above) and that he's the only tank that can do it.

A lot if not all destro tanks can do that. That IS the reason for rampage to exist and where its needed to break funnels or pushes apart. Remove that from the game by forcing a hard cap and you can start balancing choppas and slayers.

"While I agree that BO need a rework and certainly a helping hand, rampage is not the culprit you make it out to be. Rampage is compared to GTDC because they are inherently different but serve the same purpose in funnel situations. Rampage breaks the damage immunity of destro tanks in funnels, especially when guarding a dps. GTDC pulls out tanks so that a sufficiently strong blob can damage them down to stop them from using M4s during a push. It is the same effect just at different points in time. Mostly destro is just too dense to understand how powerful of a tool GTDC really is because they are playing their characters as one dimensional as order characters are designed."

"Immunity," but you have completely unrealistic conceptions; it's incredible. Immunity from what? Destro tanks don't have damage immunity, my friend, it doesn't exist. The only one who can have "100% mitigation" is the BO, and there's no point funneling with "Can't Hit Me!" my friend; funneling is to protect the people behind you, so we use "Hold the Line." So a BO in a funnel will never be in permanent "100% mitigation"; it's a myth that you take seriously.

GTDC is a 40-foot grab. It's not good for funnel attack. It's clearly not the purpose of this spell. Using it on a target that has almost a 100% chance of countering the attack? We can see why Order almost always wins a fort defense. When they lose, it must be because the Choppa successfully grabbed someone. Nonsense; you really have to be off the mark to think that way.

"I can return that statement directly to you. Play order. See how it is. You have no clue. Destro life is so much easier in that regard, and all these pulls create a toxic gameplay experience for Order."

Oh yeah, that's right, it's very simple, and yes, I don't care about people frustrated by a random grab, indeed.

"Another "you have no clue" point. I have explained how to use it properly before."

Yes, okay, master.

"You pulled the statistics for that win rate out of your arse. Simply not true."

Absolutely not true? The bad faith is palpable. I can't prove it immediately, but don't force my hand; it would be better for you if doubt hung over it, lol.

"In that case, rampage is no issue. See how you have no idea how to set up an actual rampage burst? You have to get to yellow rage, then drop it with rampage, then get to yellow again, set up dots in the meantime, and then you can start bursting. That alone is around 20+ seconds of preparation. More than that - to get damage out, you usually can't wait until you are in red to maximize damage output. So slayers will use retribution + rampage in yellow, whereas choppas will use bring it on in full red. That is a 25% damage difference and outside of funnels, with proper positioning and targeting, will have a greater effect. ID, on the other hand, is something choppas lack, and I'd argue they need it to balance the classes."

Yes, okay, Slayer is complicated to play; it's a complex class and is not judged at its true value; it's absolutely not no-brain... Yeah, to others.

"A lot, if not all, Destro tanks can do that. That IS the reason for Rampage to exist and where it's needed to break funnels or pushes apart. Remove that from the game by forcing a hard cap, and you can start balancing Choppas and Slayers."

No, no tank can truly have 100% mitigation. The only ones that come close to it are IB, BG, and BO. But in a funnel situation, the BO won't use "Can't Hit Me" because protecting oneself is good, but in a funnel, you need to protect others.

So no, once again, you're talking nonsense.

Anything else?

[Sulorie]

The Slayer has Numbing Strike. End of the discussion.

You indeed should read. The Slayer does indeed have a personal ability that makes them unkillable and fundamentally more powerful than any melee DPS in the game, along with the same ability as the Choppa that lasts for 10 seconds and debuffs a tank for everyone. It's not stronger.

Melee DPS also have every interest in stacking parry to avoid getting melted in close combat... But I guess that must be secondary when you kill a Warband in 2 seconds, indeed!

Since both classes have it mirrored, we don't have to discuss both ST -50% avoidance debuffs.
The only one worth mentioning on this topic is rampage for the reason I wrote above.

What is this personal ability to make them unkillable?

Wrong, melee DD in a group pick anticrit mixed with offensive renown traits. Parry is used for soloing to outlast your opponent(s) in 1vs1(x) encounters.