Killboard KDR should be removed!

[Uchoo]

I know and play with a lot of the high KDA players and I highly doubt that any of these players are poking fun at others about their KDA.

If this is true, then who is flaming you? Why does their opinion matter if they aren't on the list?

Where is your proof that 'negative' stats aren't worth tracking & cause problems? Do you know how you rise up the ranks in WoW raiding? Your performance measured in previous raids. You know how you get into competitive key groups? An addon that measures your performance in previous keys. Would you like to know how I improve? I watch my replays and focus on my mistakes; it's generally the easiest thing to fix. This method shot me from Diamond to Master in HotS in about a week years ago, and has stayed with me since.

Does KDA as a stat matter? We've debated this and no, not really. It can represent a player and their team performing very well and making good decisions, or it can represent someone who is averse to most risks in gameplay, who is typically neither fun to play against or alongside.

Does that mean we should take the metric tracking away? No, not at all, in my opinion at least. One of the most popular features about Live was the system that tracked kill metrics that they offered on their website. People like being able to see and track these stats, and it's a great motivating factor for those who allow it to be such.

Should we discount your reasoning as to what kind of gameplay this can lead to? Not at all, but it's hypothetical. Some of those high KDA people are warband players who have to put themselves at great risk, some are just extremely good players who avoid unnecessary risk, and some of them do some really cheesy things. Regardless, I wouldn't describe any of them as particularly bad for the game, especially being so few.

If the majority of players decided to play Magi who only stay in Warcamp Buff range and play with a BG to max-range punt people into max-range Magus Single Target distance, the game would be pretty boring. However, I don't see that ever happening.

Perhaps the issue isn't the data being tracked, but how people choose to perceive the data.

Edit: Before this gets miscontrued, please know that there are a lot of very talented players who rarely, if ever, appear on the high KDA list and I can't think of a person who thinks less of them for it.

[Uchoo]

Here is my anecdote. You can use this as an argument for and against it.

A few months ago I looked at my lifetime KDR for my eponymously named SM and saw it was less than one and went about trying to figure out why. Didn't take long to figure out that joining a warband made it go down (regardless of spec) and soloing (carefully with a 2H) made it go up.

This is a great quip as to why KDA is a pretty meaningless stat. Focusing on it might change the activities you do in-game and therefore ruin your enjoyment. It may represent high-skill and/or luck or it may represent extreme risk averse behavior or something else entirely. It's a fun stat and those who gloat about it are probably joking.

[Fatpig]

If someone gets upset over a game, where people have made a comment about KDR.....they probably should just not play.

[Everdin]

Could we maybe remove BOs from scenarios? People are judged by whether they fight on/take them or not. I heard a lot of toxic behavior from people standing on BOs and insulted other players that fought somewhere else...

Could we maybe remove keeps from open lakes? People are judged by whether they join the raid or not. I heard a lot of toxic behavior from people wanting to raid a keep and insulted other players that would not join...

Could we maybe remove champions from citys? People are judged by whether they assist on them or not. I heard a lot of toxic behavior from people wanting to kill a champion before the rest and insulted other players that would assist on it...

... feel free to add more that causes toxic behavior, maybe we should remove the forum?

[Caleb]

Where is your proof that 'negative' stats aren't worth tracking & cause problems? Do you know how you rise up the ranks in WoW raiding? Your performance measured in previous raids. You know how you get into competitive key groups? An addon that measures your performance in previous keys. Would you like to know how I improve? I watch my replays and focus on my mistakes; it's generally the easiest thing to fix. This method shot me from Diamond to Master in HotS in about a week years ago, and has stayed with me since.

Negative stats affecting a large portion of a playerbase is not a new concept and is known in many different genres, most commonly as Ladder Anxiety in extreme cases
Link:https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Dealing_with_anxiety

Just like in extreme cases it can completely stop one from playing/ enjoying a video game - in average cases it alters your playstyle.But a quick google search also gives many different examples how it's a rampant issue in many different games, from Battlefield to Valorant to World of Warcraft to League of Legends, anything you can think of.

In a very similar game to RoR's Campaign Structure, but in FPS format, Planetside 2 is struggling with similar issues where dying doesn't matter on the grand scheme of things, that players care so much about KDR that they prefer to stand back in safe places, use more snipers, or hang behind the barrier of their base / spawns ( sounds familiar? ), instead of pushing objectives and capture points where you are more likely to die. Some take it to extremes of even creating new accounts if their KDR is "ruined".

I actually fully agree with your idea of improvement and progressing through proper reading of stats - but that only works for like the top 5% of players in any game ( and I am probably already exaggerating, since you also mentioned Master Ranks and High Key Runs ) whereas the rest of the 90-95% misinterprets data and/or use it in an overall negative way, which is exactly what the majority of people do in the games you listed, like not being able to properly read logs in WoW, resulting in elitist and toxic behavior in mid-tier skill levels, famously known in the MMO community. One of the reason FFXIV for example banned using Damage Meters publicly, and can only be used for personal improvement.

You are also right that the problem isn't with the stats themselves, but with how people use it. But that's Development 101, you can not change how players behave - you can only change the systems they interact with and encourage / discourage behavior. Like you will always be able to track your own stats - but it won't be involuntarily tracked for those who want nothing to do with any of that.

Could we maybe remove BOs from scenarios? People are judged by whether they fight on/take them or not. I heard a lot of toxic behavior from people standing on BOs and insulted other players that fought somewhere else...

Could we maybe remove keeps from open lakes? People are judged by whether they join the raid or not. I heard a lot of toxic behavior from people wanting to raid a keep and insulted other players that would not join...

Could we maybe remove champions from citys? People are judged by whether they assist on them or not. I heard a lot of toxic behavior from people wanting to kill a champion before the rest and insulted other players that would assist on it...

... feel free to add more that causes toxic behavior, maybe we should remove the forum?

I don't feel unnecessary sarcasm is any helpful to the discussion or topic at hand - but since you mentioned all these points, the major difference between the post's proposal and your examples, is that the Website Killboard has nothing to do with changing the actual game of RoR, and is a fully separate 3rd Party Tool that is interacting with the community.

[Gegga]

play better, die less.

[leubac]

I don't have any say in whether the killboard stays or goes, but there's nothing here that I find remotely compelling.

The dev that made the killboard did it out of his own interest, and it was shared with the community to do as they see fit. I find the chances of it being removed over your reasons given to be exceptionally low. Since the killboard released we have seen no impact on player population that can be attributed to it aside from the occasional noise that someone doesn't like it.

We find a lot of people not liking things here or there from time to time. But it's very rare that we find a LOT of people disliking the SAME thing all at the SAME time. I'll check back when this thread has over 50 pages perhaps.

Since the killboard release, have you seen an impact on the playerbase behavior (not population), insofar as it can be measured ?

On a personnal note I also dislike the fact that KDR is a public information on this server. I don't see any value brought by this single number. What's even the point of a single character indicator in such an MMO which clearly emphasize on group plays ?

As for my little experience regarding player behavior affected by KDR, many times I played in an organized warband where the leader called to retreat or not to engage a fight because the outcome couldn't be an assured win (but it wouldn't have been a suicidal situation either). Every time such a "surprising" decision happens I ask the leader for the reason of this decision and sometimes (not always) I am told KDR is the reason.

[Everdin]

Spoiler:

Where is your proof that 'negative' stats aren't worth tracking & cause problems? Do you know how you rise up the ranks in WoW raiding? Your performance measured in previous raids. You know how you get into competitive key groups? An addon that measures your performance in previous keys. Would you like to know how I improve? I watch my replays and focus on my mistakes; it's generally the easiest thing to fix. This method shot me from Diamond to Master in HotS in about a week years ago, and has stayed with me since.

Negative stats affecting a large portion of a playerbase is not a new concept and is known in many different genres, most commonly as Ladder Anxiety in extreme cases
Link:https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Dealing_with_anxiety

Just like in extreme cases it can completely stop one from playing/ enjoying a video game - in average cases it alters your playstyle.But a quick google search also gives many different examples how it's a rampant issue in many different games, from Battlefield to Valorant to World of Warcraft to League of Legends, anything you can think of.

In a very similar game to RoR's Campaign Structure, but in FPS format, Planetside 2 is struggling with similar issues where dying doesn't matter on the grand scheme of things, that players care so much about KDR that they prefer to stand back in safe places, use more snipers, or hang behind the barrier of their base / spawns ( sounds familiar? ), instead of pushing objectives and capture points where you are more likely to die. Some take it to extremes of even creating new accounts if their KDR is "ruined".

I actually fully agree with your idea of improvement and progressing through proper reading of stats - but that only works for like the top 5% of players in any game ( and I am probably already exaggerating, since you also mentioned Master Ranks and High Key Runs ) whereas the rest of the 90-95% misinterprets data and/or use it in an overall negative way, which is exactly what the majority of people do in the games you listed, like not being able to properly read logs in WoW, resulting in elitist and toxic behavior in mid-tier skill levels, famously known in the MMO community. One of the reason FFXIV for example banned using Damage Meters publicly, and can only be used for personal improvement.

You are also right that the problem isn't with the stats themselves, but with how people use it. But that's Development 101, you can not change how players behave - you can only change the systems they interact with and encourage / discourage behavior. Like you will always be able to track your own stats - but it won't be involuntarily tracked for those who want nothing to do with any of that.

Could we maybe remove BOs from scenarios? People are judged by whether they fight on/take them or not. I heard a lot of toxic behavior from people standing on BOs and insulted other players that fought somewhere else...

Could we maybe remove keeps from open lakes? People are judged by whether they join the raid or not. I heard a lot of toxic behavior from people wanting to raid a keep and insulted other players that would not join...

Could we maybe remove champions from citys? People are judged by whether they assist on them or not. I heard a lot of toxic behavior from people wanting to kill a champion before the rest and insulted other players that would assist on it...

... feel free to add more that causes toxic behavior, maybe we should remove the forum?

I don't feel unnecessary sarcasm is any helpful to the discussion or topic at hand - but since you mentioned all these points, the major difference between the post's proposal and your examples, is that the Website Killboard has nothing to do with changing the actual game of RoR, and is a fully separate 3rd Party Tool that is interacting with the community.

The whole point of this discussion is about the killboard changes the game cause it changes how people play.

You seem like someone who gives a flying ... about your k/d, fine, just don't look at it.
There are people that care about their k/d, fine, let them look at it, let them do what they want with it, it's their gamign experience not yours.
If people are toxic caus of k/d ratio of others, report them, there is no difference in beeing toxic for another of my mentioned reasons, the difference in your head is just "This kind of toixc is better then this kind of toxic".

edit: If warband leaders avoid fighting cause of k/d, look for another warband or build your own with like-mindet persons! Again - Their decission, not yours!

[Uchoo]

Negative stats affecting a large portion of a playerbase is not a new concept and is known in many different genres, most commonly as Ladder Anxiety in extreme cases

I don't subscribe to the theory that doing things like hiding stats and damage meters is ever helpful. FF14 is the off-case where the community seems to be more welcoming and I'm not convinced it has anything to do with the hiding of stats.

Lost Ark also disallows damage meters but people just use other ways to gatekeep players such as gear and titles.

That behavior is common; the motivations make sense; and is another discussion completely, but my recommendation is to join a guild.

I read the article you linked and I didn't see anything where you should ignore negative stats to avoid Ladder Anxiety. In fact, it stated quite the opposite:


In the case you made about Planetside, I haven't played it but it distinctly sounds like a Game Design problem. RoR has a great holy trinity system that allows structured players to safely push onto and hold objectives without relying on hiding and max-range one shots. Things like Guard, Challenge, Hold the Line, Resurrect, etc are what make the push and pull gameplay work. As far as FPS, Overwatch is one of the few games to do something like this. If you are seeing a lot of people in the lake who are just standing around, not wanting to push or move around, it's likely because there isn't a structured warband on your side to basically carry the campaign and get things moving. This is also a flaw in Game Design (the game relies very heavily on Player-Created Content) so the players have to take over and make things work.

[Caleb]

I read the article you linked and I didn't see anything where you should ignore negative stats to avoid Ladder Anxiety. In fact, it stated quite the opposite:

Just to clarify the article for our discussion, yeah you've linked the part that handles how it should be treated/fixed - as it explains it's the processing of a loss/information that is the root of the issue, not necessarily the statistics themselves, which we both did agree about.

It says so at the beginning that it's an anxiety initially caused by statistics, as in how a person interprets them:

This anxiety can occur for many reasons, most of which boil down to caring too much about one's 1v1 ladder rating. More so than in many other games, the perception in RTSes is that one's performance reflects one's intelligence. With no team mates to blame or fall back on, losing a 1v1 for many feels like a blow to their ego.