Suggestion: Make knockdowns core for all tanks

[Culexus]

Nice and simple suggestion. Currently all tanks have to spec halfway up a mastery tree to get their knockdown ability. Core abilities comprise of all the abilities a class requires to perform its role such as rez, detaunt, gap closer etc. As knockdowns are as an important part of the tanking toolkit as punt and guard it fits the criteria of a core ability so should be removed from its mastery tree and become core.

This change will increase build variety for all tanks as they will have the freedom to spec into different trees and spend mastery points they otherwise couldn't. This is especially true for the CH/KotBS as they have to spec half way up the tank tree in 2h to take the kd so the change will give them access to the 2h+Buff trees, providing a lot more synergy.

I know BG and IB already have a kd with shield requirement as core, but this can just be changed to remove the shield requirement and mirror the abilities so IB gets access to the longer kd. This gives both classes something extra for having their core kd become standard amongst all the classes.

[nebelwerfer]

How about you make the best cc in the game harder to pull off instead of easier?
Ch/kobs have the privelige to approach enemies without much regard for their own life because of the absurd threat of having a kd+longpunt ondemand which is a sure-thing for braindead premades to abuse.

There should certaintly be a condition for this wombo combo, not a lowering of the bar for all tanks for the sake of it. If you want to cheese this blindspot in balance you dont get to have access to the other nice things.

[Faction69]

Knockdown is a core part of the toolkit for basically every class that has it yet only a few are core abilities

Ever fought a WH/WE without KD? Nope, they're specced into it. And if they didn't need to... It'd probably imbalance things. Just kinda how things are eh

[Culexus]

Knockdown is a core part of the toolkit for basically every class that has it yet only a few are core abilities

Ever fought a WH/WE without KD? Nope, they're specced into it. And if they didn't need to... It'd probably imbalance things. Just kinda how things are eh

I was talking more about group play than solo or pug where players just kd as and when they want with little regard for coordination. In a group setting taking a kd is required for a tank as without it you won't be able to fulfill your role so won't be welcome in an organised groups. Dps don't have this issue as they still do their job without a kd.

It is a good point about the balance though. It could be argued that tanks are balanced around them being in the mastery trees so they don't gain access to their full kit. Although I would argue that a class having to waste 10 mastery point speccing into a tree it otherwise has no reason to spec into isn't a good way of balancing anything as it's a huge price to pay for a mandatory ability. Imagine a healer having to spend 10 mastery points in the dps tree to rez.

[Rotgut]

Well the Tanks Rework phase is over (i think, might be nearly over) so i'm sure the Balance Team discussed this. And it It looks like a very hard spell to balance because its such high impact.

Punts and KDs are crucial parts of Kills Condition in 6v6, and its a huge spell in WBs too imo. A KD into a Punt is 50% more dmg on a Guarded Target for like what, at least 5 seconds? If its a BG super punt its a lot more. It also prevents ppl from running, it interrupts Dmg Drops, it can prevent a Mara's AoE KD, it stuns healers for 2 GCDs and that can get a party killed.

Its a rly big spell. Speccing into it should have a relevant cost. Making it free would be a big buff to all Tanks, and that will probably force a review of many other different spells.

Lets just think about Order tanks. IBs get a free KD, KobS and SMs gotta spec into it. KobS's aura are so strong its basically mandatory to have 4 in your WB. SMs will do more Protection and Healing than an IB and they also have WWs, which enables a bunch of builds from different classes, making them mandatory in some cases. IBs will slow ppl down and keep two ppl buffed (with a 10second delay before the 2nd target can be buffed). In a WB setting they do have a lower impact, but free KD helps them keep up. If you give free KDs to the other two tanks, they'll have the ability to spec into even stronger builds, and then you'll have to buff IB to keep them relevant. Suddenly all three Order Tanks got buffed from one change, which means you gotta buff every single DPS to make up for it. And that's not even thinking about 6v6.

Can it be done? Sure. But its a cascading overhaul that the Balance Team probably talked about but decided to go another route.

[TrainInVain]

Make tank punts into a morale ability. Rdps have to have morale 1 for it. Then the amount of cc might be counter balanced against knockdown as a core ability.

[Culexus]

Well the Tanks Rework phase is over (i think, might be nearly over) so i'm sure the Balance Team discussed this. And it It looks like a very hard spell to balance because its such high impact.

Punts and KDs are crucial parts of Kills Condition in 6v6, and its a huge spell in WBs too imo. A KD into a Punt is 50% more dmg on a Guarded Target for like what, at least 5 seconds? If its a BG super punt its a lot more. It also prevents ppl from running, it interrupts Dmg Drops, it can prevent a Mara's AoE KD, it stuns healers for 2 GCDs and that can get a party killed.

Its a rly big spell. Speccing into it should have a relevant cost. Making it free would be a big buff to all Tanks, and that will probably force a review of many other different spells.

Lets just think about Order tanks. IBs get a free KD, KobS and SMs gotta spec into it. KobS's aura are so strong its basically mandatory to have 4 in your WB. SMs will do more Protection and Healing than an IB and they also have WWs, which enables a bunch of builds from different classes, making them mandatory in some cases. IBs will slow ppl down and keep two ppl buffed (with a 10second delay before the 2nd target can be buffed). In a WB setting they do have a lower impact, but free KD helps them keep up. If you give free KDs to the other two tanks, they'll have the ability to spec into even stronger builds, and then you'll have to buff IB to keep them relevant. Suddenly all three Order Tanks got buffed from one change, which means you gotta buff every single DPS to make up for it. And that's not even thinking about 6v6.

Can it be done? Sure. But its a cascading overhaul that the Balance Team probably talked about but decided to go another route.

Really well written reply. I don't think it would really effect wb play as KotBS and SM both spec into the trees with kds anyway so it's only a single mastery point they are spending so if they all want to run kds they easily can. The reason for the change was more based on smallscale where kd have to be taken some tanks (mainly KotBS & CH and to a lesser extent SM & BO) have to spec deep into trees they otherwise wouldn't wish to spec into to get it. IB, BG have the kd in their 2h trees so if they are going going 2h it doesn't really effect them.

I do get the point about opening up more mastery points to spend could much more of an effect than anticipated though. 2h tanks suddenly having way more mastery points to play would probably have larger consequences to balance that would then need to be addressed, leading to further balancing work required to fix it.

I think an argument can be made both for and against it and my initial proposal of just making them core was probably wrong. It would have to be done alongside wider changes at the same time which probably isn't worth the effort and potential problems it could create. Increasing build diversity should always be the goal of a good balance change imo, but this change on it's own may not be the best way to do it. Consider my mind changed.

[nebelwerfer]

Knockdown is a core part of the toolkit for basically every class that has it yet only a few are core abilities

Ever fought a WH/WE without KD? Nope, they're specced into it. And if they didn't need to... It'd probably imbalance things. Just kinda how things are eh

they have core abilities with hard cc this is a 4 sec silence and 4 sec disarm. KNockdown is, as i stated above; incredibly powerful and shouldn't be given out easily. That being said, there is an argument to be made to give MDPS classes a damaging morale with secondary cc effect or something of that sort.

For example Sever nerve at level 40 could deal damage, reduce action points and/or knockdown. Available to all or maybe not. Idk, I'm not a balance expert.

[Aethilmar]

Not a fan. The whole "make it core" movement (first with single target punts now with this idea) is reducing differentiation between tanks and classes in general. There need to be choices and sacrifices for particular play styles.

[Fey]

Interesting discussion. I think one could make an argument for lowering the BO KD, Down Ya Go, into the fifth spec position swapped with, Rock Ard. This is obviously more to benefit 2-hand spec.

With the new parry tactic in Toughest tree currently you need sov +2 to get KD, parry tactic, and all the best stuff from Brawler tree. You already need at least Bloodlord to make 2-hand BO viable.

Lowering the KD would enable lower ranked BOs to spec 2-hand and have enough tools to perform at least in a scenario setting. You can also probably make a good argument for leaving things as they are. I think overall the tank KD meta is in a decent place.