Impact of AOE 9-man-cap in PvE

[leftayparxoun]

Hello everyone,

In this post I will be specifically talking about the implications of the 9 person cap for AOE abilities to the state of PvE in the game. I chose to make it an individual topic instead of a comment under the patchnotes since the reasoning behind the change seems to be purely PvP driven. Although the 9-man-cap could end up being just a short test, never to be seen again, I am still making this post in case it ends up being a feature.

How does the 9-man-cap affect the PvE scene?

Mainly in 3 ways:

• AOE attacks now can hit up to 9 targets, making swarms/large groups harder to deal with depending on their size

• AOE CC can also hit up to 9 targets. This makes CCing all mobs at the same time harder.

• Challenge now affects only the 9 nearest targets hit, making tanks' job at aggro harder in certain situations

Here are some already implemented cases in PvE that have become much harder, if not impossible to deal with (for the intended player gear).

• GB - Arathremia: Tank will not be able to hold the aggro of all mobs properly during waves.

• GB - Wight Lord Solithex: Pillar phase now should be an even harder dps race, since they tank won't be able to reasonably aggro all the zombies that spawn after a certain point.

• HV - Spellbiter: Will the tank be able to aggro most of the sprites? Will the dps be able to kill them faster than they spawn? Who knows.

• HV - Kurnous: Second Gate phase might be manageable at first, but when not being able to CC/aggro and burst down all mobs from the larger waves people might starting dying

• BS - Chorek the Unstoppable: Will the tank be able to aggro all the sprites? I can't remember the exact number but that could be an issue, especially with someone in jail

I may be missing something as a Destro-only player from Crypts too. Feel free to comment if I've omitted something major.

Besides those existing issues, a lot more could arise in future Dungeons (Tunnels, BE, LV, ToVL) and even more so in the upcoming ch.22 hard PQs, where the content is designed around 24 people.

The main takeaway for me is that the 9-man-cap's impact should also be examined in terms of PvE and, if it is to stay, then some changes must be applied to existing PvE content and some design changes must be made for upcoming PvE content.
Thanks for reading.

[Omegus]

What happens if you bring 2 tanks to those PVE situations, as dungeons are to my knowledge designed for 2-2-2 with 1-3-2 (1 tank 3 DPS) being the risky option for those trying to speed run it.

[leftayparxoun]

What happens if you bring 2 tanks to those PVE situations, as dungeons are to my knowledge designed for 2-2-2 with 1-3-2 (1 tank 3 DPS) being the risky option for those trying to speed run it.

Good question!
Examining the scenarios I showcased 1 by 1, my guess would be:

• GB - Arathremia: Easy clear, but running a 2nd tank would make the full dungeon take around 10-20% longer to clear. In general not an issue, but in low-geared teams (common in GB) could be a difference between someone leaving or not due to obligations.

• GB - Wight Lord Solithex: Probably wouldn't impact the fight much. You would still not be able to aggro the adds, especially since you would have a slower TTK on the pillars. Read above for the overall dungeon duration.

• HV - Spellbiter: Could make the boss-clear easier, but again having another tank instead of a dps means most groups would fail the 45 min timer the dungeon is designed around, unless overgeared.

• HV - Kurnous: Probably all but the final add wave in 2nd Gate phase would be very manageable. Same effect on dungeon time (see above)

• BS - Chorek the Unstoppable: Would make the fight easy. I would expect a similar 10-20% clear-time increase on dungeon.

I doubt any of the clear time increases would be relevant to the speedrun quests though, since all people should be geared for those. At most it would make the player-imposed requirements for them a bit harsher.

The big question is, ''Is it a nice change to have people struggle longer in PvE than what we have currently?''. This is why I'm advocating for changes to Dungeons and PvE in general if the 9-man-cap comes to pass.

Edit: The moment I pressed submit it also dawned on me. The game has a 1:2:1 ratio between tank, dps and heal classes. Running 2-2-2 always means that a lot of dps characters would be bottlenecked by the available tanks and heals.

[Aluviya]

What happens if you bring 2 tanks to those PVE situations, as dungeons are to my knowledge designed for 2-2-2 with 1-3-2 (1 tank 3 DPS) being the risky option for those trying to speed run it.

Even as an organizer who daily arranges PvE, I can barely fill a single tank for most runs and recently have had to cancel most of them due to a lack of tanks willing to participate. Even after all the changes being made, certain PvE content remains very unpopular and has no rerunning value for those who already have the gear. There is no self-sustaining system that allows newbies to get gear and veterans to achieve other goodies for certain content like BS and HV. Hence, reading that people still defend the 2-2-2 fiction is really frustrating to me (there is no better word here) And no, it's simply not any fun to seek a tank or even two, just to have a PvE run that takes a third of the time spent seeking fills. We are currently running Crypts in less than 20 minutes – this is not even half the time some people spend seeking a tank in /5.

Additionally, I can relate to the original post because there are constantly hidden or indirect changes made to PvE. Which ones, you might ask? A recent example: We used to tank the Pox Bloated Child mostly where it spawned because it has heavy pathing issues in some of the wings of its lair in BB. Very recently, it was changed so that the M4 damage reduction it gets doesn't wear off if the spawned objects are not killed close to the boss – with no record of this change to be found. This means you have to wait until the boss finds its path, where it’s sometimes not even attackable for 20 seconds because it’s still stuck somewhere in the walls.

Generally speaking, I feel an utter discomfort with the recent patches made in the last year, as they give me heavily the impression that the changes seem to lack quality guidelines, a multiperspective approach, and the foresight of the effects on the whole system, eventually cascading into other content, such as PvE, without intention – or not solving the problem they were meant to solve while adding new ones. A recent example that is not PvE but generally shows what I mean would be the added barriers in Serpents Passage alongside the quitter debuff idea, yet there are still spots on both sides where you can return to the spawning point without effort or die over and over in the spawn point by walking into the sea and getting rid of the quitter debuff. The original post here is also a good example for the PvE part of these issues.

[Omegus]

Hence, (blah blah blah blah) reading that people still defend the 2-2-2 fiction is really frustrating to me (there is no better word here)

(blah blah blah blah)

Point to where "2-2-2 fiction" (?!?!) is "defended". What does that even mean?!?!?

Some bosses have tank swap requirements so were clearly designed with two tanks in mind. Whether you like this, whether tanks like this and your ability to form PvE groups does not make the design choices "fiction". I get you wanted to have a PvE rant (and also a scenario rant in a PvE thread...), but no need to try and turn my question about how the game was designed (like it or not) into assumptions and accusations that I am either making it up ("fiction") and/or defending it.

You should also put any unannounced changes to the game that you find on the bug tracker. You and I have both been on this server for long enough to know that things constantly break when new patches go live, ESPECIALLY when it comes to PvE.

[Aluviya]

Hence, (blah blah blah blah) reading that people still defend the 2-2-2 fiction is really frustrating to me (there is no better word here)

(blah blah blah blah)

Point to where "2-2-2 fiction" (?!?!) is "defended". What does that even mean?!?!?

Some bosses have tank swap requirements so were clearly designed with two tanks in mind. Whether you like this, whether tanks like this and your ability to form PvE groups does not make the design choices "fiction". I get you wanted to have a PvE rant (and also a scenario rant in a PvE thread...), but no need to try and turn my question about how the game was designed (like it or not) into assumptions and accusations that I am either making it up ("fiction") and/or defending it.

You should also put any unannounced changes to the game that you find on the bug tracker. You and I have both been on this server for long enough to know that things constantly break when new patches go live, ESPECIALLY when it comes to PvE.

I don't see why you'd mock me with "blah blah blah", behave please. Did not say anything to offend you. I am doing PvE in speed runs still with 1T 4 DPS and 1 Heal and that involves all the PvE content on both sides. The game might be designed around 2 -2 -2 but it's population is not supporting it - which was also the point of the original post.

[Omegus]

Hence, (blah blah blah blah) reading that people still defend the 2-2-2 fiction is really frustrating to me (there is no better word here)

(blah blah blah blah)

Point to where "2-2-2 fiction" (?!?!) is "defended". What does that even mean?!?!?

Some bosses have tank swap requirements so were clearly designed with two tanks in mind. Whether you like this, whether tanks like this and your ability to form PvE groups does not make the design choices "fiction". I get you wanted to have a PvE rant (and also a scenario rant in a PvE thread...), but no need to try and turn my question about how the game was designed (like it or not) into assumptions and accusations that I am either making it up ("fiction") and/or defending it.

You should also put any unannounced changes to the game that you find on the bug tracker. You and I have both been on this server for long enough to know that things constantly break when new patches go live, ESPECIALLY when it comes to PvE.

I don't see why you'd mock me with "blah blah blah", behave please. Did not say anything to offend you. I am doing PvE in speed runs still with 1T 4 DPS and 1 Heal and that involves all the PvE content on both sides. The game might be designed around 2 -2 -2 but it's population is not supporting it.

So who did you see "defend the 2-2-2 fiction" when quoting me?

[Aluviya]

Point to where "2-2-2 fiction" (?!?!) is "defended". What does that even mean?!?!?

Some bosses have tank swap requirements so were clearly designed with two tanks in mind. Whether you like this, whether tanks like this and your ability to form PvE groups does not make the design choices "fiction". I get you wanted to have a PvE rant (and also a scenario rant in a PvE thread...), but no need to try and turn my question about how the game was designed (like it or not) into assumptions and accusations that I am either making it up ("fiction") and/or defending it.

You should also put any unannounced changes to the game that you find on the bug tracker. You and I have both been on this server for long enough to know that things constantly break when new patches go live, ESPECIALLY when it comes to PvE.

I don't see why you'd mock me with "blah blah blah", behave please. Did not say anything to offend you. I am doing PvE in speed runs still with 1T 4 DPS and 1 Heal and that involves all the PvE content on both sides. The game might be designed around 2 -2 -2 but it's population is not supporting it.

So who did you see "defend the 2-2-2 fiction" when quoting me?

Have nothing left to tell to you, rude one.

[trh382]

The AOE cap change is a substantial negative for PVE for all of the reasons above described by lefty.

Finding a second tank for pve runs is extremely difficult.

I have run hundreds of BS/GB etc over the last year and the 9 target nerf makes PVE way worse on every dimension. Suggesting that 2-2-2 is an appropriate default comp in PVE is simply not based in reality.

1-3-1 with 1 random w/e you can find is the realistic comp for most things. 1-3-2 for BS to be safe.

[Hugatsaga]

What happens if you bring 2 tanks to those PVE situations, as dungeons are to my knowledge designed for 2-2-2 with 1-3-2 (1 tank 3 DPS) being the risky option for those trying to speed run it.

What happens?

1) PVE runs happen less frequently due difficulties finding 2x willing tanks
2) PVE runs last longer