[PTS] Combustion & Dark magic

[Sinisterror]

I wager Caduceus knows better than germ32. Wow thanks for saying its not quaranteed dmg every gcd. Go with your sorc at 100 combust and see how many routines you can do to training dummy before you die.

Literally everyone knows that its 35%. What did you think you were bringin to the discussion by mentioning that? or do you need to just have last word and cant admit if you are wrong even if you realize it?

[germ32]

I mean there's a reason its in the patch notes, I agree with the change no need to come after me.

[Caduceus]

I don't particularly like probability, but the situation you are describing has a 4.2% chance of occurring (.35 x .35 x .35) at 100 combustion. So yea that is bad luck but honestly I don't think it is an unreasonable claim I am making. I have played the class believe me and I've never had a problem with killing myself.

4.2% may sound like a small chance, but when you are continually casting this occurs frequently and it's something that any Sorc/BW will have to account for, especially when they are under pressure (which is a given in competitive environments).

Where most other classes can continue to deal damage while under pressure, Sorc/BW runs the risk of adding their own morale bombing ontop of the pressure by enemies.

The suggestion that thousands of morale damage over the course of a fight is somehow trivial is completely unreasonable, in my opinion.

[germ32]

I don't particularly like probability, but the situation you are describing has a 4.2% chance of occurring (.35 x .35 x .35) at 100 combustion. So yea that is bad luck but honestly I don't think it is an unreasonable claim I am making. I have played the class believe me and I've never had a problem with killing myself.

4.2% may sound like a small chance, but when you are continually casting this occurs frequently and it's something that any Sorc/BW will have to account for, especially when they are under pressure (which is a given in competitive environments).

Where most other classes can continue to deal damage while under pressure, Sorc/BW runs the risk of adding their own morale bombing ontop of the pressure by enemies.

The suggestion that thousands of morale damage over the course of a fight is somehow trivial is completely unreasonable, in my opinion.

I just think it is easily counteracted by any kind of healing small or large, regardless of if it can happen or not the chance is small enough that there is counterplay for someone who is skilled at the class the majority of the time. Not having to slot a tactic or do anything to have the highest crit chance and crit damage in the game is a great tradeoff for such a small chance to take 2k dmg.

[germ32]

We can disagree, its fine I've said all I have to say I don't want to keep repeating myself. Surely I'm not the only one any more who believes this.

[normanis]

nerfing bw/sorc is welcome. its make opurtunity for engi/magus in wb.
magus/engi pets should be instant without tactic slot sacrf.

[Mez]

nerfing bw/sorc is welcome. its make opurtunity for engi/magus in wb.
magus/engi pets should be instant without tactic slot sacrf.

I cant bother to add input any more because this is the true concerns of the EU playerbase and devs.

For the last 5 years balance seems to be centered around ranked, or EU warband gate push RvR balance. If you are single target, if you fall anywhere outside of these 2 demographics, you do not matter. I do not matter.

But for the sake of documenting protest.....sorc/bw has no auto attack. They have no pet damage. Their spells are dependent on not being disrupted, and frankly the damage is not great. It's only noticeable because of backload rotations, i.e. burst. It's 'Here I AM' damage. The majority of single target gameplay is killing players with this, that would die anyways. It is not effetive against groups, warbands, or support. Therefore this nerf is for AOE casters, not single target casters, so I can't speak on EU AOE warband balance. But I can say this destroys single target fans.

BW is utility heavy, and may be okay, but sorcs definitely need a healdebuff and knockdown to match BW in order to be playable if this change goes through.

[calipso]

Spoiler:

If we are to take a look at the last frontpage cityinstances and just blindly looking at sorc/BW performance in all gear and RR ranges here are the links:

Two RR 70 BWs, two RR 65 sorcs
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... ef297f818b

RR 45 bw
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 07f80e6607

RR 80 bw
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 538a05de1d

RR 80, rr 40 BW. RR 80 sorc:
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 12e3626328

RR 80, RR 40 BW. RR 60 sorc
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 5caf2163e0

No BW. RR 78 sorc RR 80 sorc
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 71822f4573

RR 75bw RR 65 sorc
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 7e4e321c70

The one instance where I suspect this sudden interest in BW/Sorc is coming from is from an instance that luckily got streamed so we can see more of the "why" there was such a big difference in damage. But when we look closer we can see more of the real picture and not just blindly look at stats and overreact:

Scoreboard and link to skirmish report:
RR 80 bws, rr 70 sorc
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... ea61f77efb
Streamlink: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2226853807

Timestamps
20:19 leftover talk about being outdamaged by a BW in LOTD where Morale damage from Explosive Force ALWAYS brings BW ahead.
20:34 slayer singletarget/aoe builds kill 2 zealot, 2 shammies while destro focuses to kill the two BWs behind the pillar,
order meleedps kills destro's healers out in the open

31:27 order 4 groups fight destro 3 groups
31: 38 can see slayers moving around finihsing destro healers off one by one where as BWs are doing aoe criticalmass to pressure the groups with lower healing while the focusfire happends
Order aoe damagedealers get 5kills on destro tanks/healers while they have one group advantage in the fight and the slayer melee train is killing a zealot for pressure on the frontline.

32:55 next fight starts without destro having everyone there. several tanks/healers missing. Frontal fight and BWs already have morales from beating on the lord coming into destro M3 No escape + M2 drop kills
35:29 lion is mara pulled and killed before teh fight and will lose alot of damage uptime from this fight(lion plays with pet and not with +25%loner tactic for maximum aoe)

The rest of the instance was just a farm, slayers at times moved to the side to deal with a healer or Ranged SH but alos added some aoe pressure.

So my conclusion when I look around for data is that we need to stop blindly trusting just skirmish reports and instead look at the bigger picture.
These slayers added so much pressure in both killing/pressuring destro backline allowing the aoe spam from BWs on the frontline to be meaningful. This is the classic compostion of a 3aoe group 1st group. But in this case done with slayers who can help and add more aoe damage criticalmass to create kills both on ST and aoe. The BWs will always drive into the bigger stack to apply the aoe pressure where as several times in this instance are the slayers going off and adding healer pressure, allowing the BW aoe dmg to go from fluff to pressure to leathal. This is not a new concept, it was used for the many first months and years of City sieges so why are we suddenly blindly reacting to only scoreboard numbers, confusing Land of the Dead morale advantages vs none morale classes, and when we compare bigger than just one instance, we see that those two BWs outdamageing others might actually have been player diffrence and mainly outdamaged so drastically as the WL was running pet aoe build, slayers were doing backline singletarget pressure.

Hopefully this whole post was not needed, as we are not blindly balancing the game out of scoreboards only and we actually look at the real game and see the full picture, right? Hopefully because theres a Dev inside that instance and a very vocal voice constantly mentioning "brightwizard, brightwizard, brightwizard" we are not getting nerfs based on that two days later. I HAVE to belive that is not the server we play on!

Old news but frankly, very accurate.
It wouldn’t be the first time said “vocal voice” whines and cry for something to be “fixed” to then be added on next patch. We have seen it so many times (i could tell many examples) to the point that is frustrating and irritating, to all of us. Furthermore, in case of Bw/Sorc, it wouldn’t be a surprise that such change has been added to this patch as cover to “lets stop that whine”, since we are allegedly right now on healers phase according to roadmap, 0 sense to do that.
Yet nothing has been done to fix that nor they care about us knowing from where certain changes came from, only thing that matters is the happiness of that “vocal voice”.

[Sever1n]

BWs after announced 4.5% nerf - "burn devs alive"
Knigths 2h after they lose all that parry from ws - "meh"

[vanbuinen77]

This is a good change, both sorc/bw have been op since Live.