Regen stuff need a nerf

[Shieldslam]

Regen WE is fine. It is WH that needs help. I rolled a Mara and am trolling through WH's in t4. Ever since the nerf on the WH self heal through a finisher (dependent on tactic and loss of Specialization point), WH's have become softer and not on equal footing with the WE.

While I'm not bias towards either class I have to agree with (most) of this statement. WH have been in a rough spot for a while, they are really damn strong (almost too strong?) against ungeared or low RR opponents but once they encounter someone who's geared they really struggle since their entire strength seems to be Repel Blasphemy into M1 and if the enemy didn't die after you basically lost. The healing bullet spam was too strong indeed but nowdays they kinda .. don't really do a lot anymore. With the WS change they got even more squishy now. Same goes for regular WE though, only the defensive bubble spam/heal/regen ones are way too strong but glass cannon are free RR.

[jafh123]

SnB IB is easily countered by armor + reduced arpen. Chosen is stronger because it deals magic damage. This is why there are more chosens solo roaming than SnB IB's (of these only 2 come to mind).

"Easily countered" by one of the hardest to get stats in the game. Reduced armorpen isn't just something you can easily get, not even with reknown. Armor can be socketed with talisman but WS (which IB's tend to stack) is % so you don't really get a lot out of it unless you are fully slotted and at the same time how will you kill the IB if you do so?

However, I would argue SnB IB's strength isn't exactly being uncounterable (though incredibly hard to take down and needs to be built for specifically) but rather the fact that it has good matchups across the board and if played well is able to face any enemy with maybe the exception of Shamans. Even SH's, who are supposed to out-kite you, can be brought down by a combination of AtD/M1/ES. Try playing against a kite class as any other tank and you'll see the difference. Despite playing IB yourself you don't seem to realise just how unbelievably many tools the class has, and always had.
Roaming has never been about countering one aspect or class specifically but rather being countered by others as little as possible. IB, in its current state, is simply a roamers wet dream because it has just about anything you could want except magical damage (not always better) which is the only downside:

>Multiple builds to mix things up but also two seperate all round builds that both work incredibly well
>Mostly dot dmg (has more dps than "normal" abilities to balance the lacking burst) which offers good dps by default in longer fights which duels are
>Incredible M1 which is an absolutely amazing tool against your counterclasses
>Doesn't have to invest in parry/disrupt/dodge, just stacks block and can deal with both melee and range with SnB
>Outstanding base tactics, it's genuinely insane how good most of IB's tactics are compared to pretty much every other class
>20% parry+ini buff as well as 10% block tactic in the same tree
>Can go SnB or 2h perfectly fine, even has a base stun with SnB
>Up to 20% reduced crit chance debuff on the opponent
>Second highest armor debuff in the game (unless something changed recently?)
>considerable Armor increase on a base ability for 20s with no cd
>Potent Str+WP buff base, no downtime
>WS and Toughness buff, again base
>Slow/root removal on a 30s cd which also happens to heal (plus Juggernaut)
>Heal debuff which is easy to get
>ranged slow on a 20s cd
>Imagine when they get G&M back eventually in either middle or right tree or even base, they'll literally be invincible then

Now tell me where the downsides are, besides looking bland because I genuinely cannot see it. No stealth? No pull? No Pounce like WL/SM M2? Strictly for 1v1/1v2 that is. Stacking Grudge can be annoying, I have to admit, but once you get going after a few seconds it's fine so I guess that's a minor downside. IB has always been known to be one of the best choices for solo, just barely anyone wanted to play them.
The reason there are so many Chosen solo'ing is because the class genuinely is strong even if played badly, doesn't require a lot of maintenance or effort, magical dmg/Cleave/ToP (same as IB punishing blow but spirit dmg)/passive dmg, range stagger to catch up, looking amazing (opinion based but come on) while still being desired for every part of the game so it's a perfect main class to do everything on.

Maybe "easily" is not the correct word. English is not my first language, as you can probably tell when reading what I write.

What I meant to say is that you can stack reduce arpen to really notice its effects with, for example, fleshrenders, senti jewel, weapons, shield, armor (off sov tank helm provides 4% and warlord gloves provide 1%).

And yeah, this is a way to not get killed by the IB, killing the IB is a bit trickier . I have only fought another SnB IB once, and I outgeared him a bit, so it doesn't count.

[Farrul]

Now tell me where the downsides are, besides looking bland because I genuinely cannot see it. No stealth? No pull? No Pounce like WL/SM M2? Strictly for 1v1/1v2 that is. Stacking Grudge can be annoying, I have to admit, but once you get going after a few seconds it's fine so I guess that's a minor downside. IB has always been known to be one of the best choices for solo, just barely anyone wanted to play them.
The reason there are so many Chosen solo'ing is because the class genuinely is strong even if played badly, doesn't require a lot of maintenance or effort, magical dmg/Cleave/ToP (same as IB punishing blow but spirit dmg)/passive dmg, range stagger to catch up, looking amazing (opinion based but come on) while still being desired for every part of the game so it's a perfect main class to do everything on.

IB 2H roam is more less r.i.p since they removed GnM and nerfed abilities, hence you don't see many anymore roaming solo because they all retired( myself included, BIS IB for 2 years & experienced, student of Volgograd ). On the other hand 2H chosens are everywhere, go figure. Magic->Physical.

Now in a straight up duel a SnB will be strong, we're talking 1vs1 with no interference, but again someone who wants to counter you can easily do it since SnB dps won't be too high and the tools to counter physical damage are many.

In the real rvr, that is outside of a duel in the arena, one can ignore a SnB IB tank for most part unless you honor the duel with him, their damage just isn't there , dangerous classes will be WL's, SW'S , AM's etc.

A tank in the end is just a tank, slow, lacks escapes and is easily surrounded/ganked/manipulated but strong cc and debuffs. The times tanks are dangerous is in groups, punting and assisting real dps and with a healer behind them.

For this reason i do not complain much about the Chosen although i do recognize they're overtuned in def/regen spec, but more a problem of imbalanced magic in general.

TL;dr Tanks are easily outmaneuvered which is why they are probably the worst archetype to solo roam with. IB is no exception.

[Shieldslam]

Maybe "easily" is not the correct word. English is not my first language, as you can probably tell when reading what I write.

What I meant to say is that you can stack reduce arpen to really notice its effects with, for example, fleshrenders, senti jewel, weapons, shield, armor (off sov tank helm provides 4% and warlord gloves provide 1%).

And yeah, this is a way to not get killed by the IB, killing the IB is a bit trickier . I have only fought another SnB IB once, and I outgeared him a bit, so it doesn't count.

I get what you mean, it's just that by trying to build this way you give up a lot of offensive power and all that reduced armorpen/armor means your matchups with magical classes get way worse. I'm not trying to say that this build specifically is impossible to defend yourself against but rather the fact that it just has pretty much anything you could desire. It's so far above other builds that it honestly is quite sad as you don't have to sacrifice anything to get everything. It's the most versatile with the most options by FAR. IB is the roaming equivalent to group KOTBS when it comes to amount of amazing options/abilities. Obviously balance has been gutted for years but genuinely asking, how exactly is that fair?

[jafh123]

Maybe "easily" is not the correct word. English is not my first language, as you can probably tell when reading what I write.

What I meant to say is that you can stack reduce arpen to really notice its effects with, for example, fleshrenders, senti jewel, weapons, shield, armor (off sov tank helm provides 4% and warlord gloves provide 1%).

And yeah, this is a way to not get killed by the IB, killing the IB is a bit trickier . I have only fought another SnB IB once, and I outgeared him a bit, so it doesn't count.

I get what you mean, it's just that by trying to build this way you give up a lot of offensive power and all that reduced armorpen/armor means your matchups with magical classes get way worse. I'm not trying to say that this build specifically is impossible to defend yourself against but rather the fact that it just has pretty much anything you could desire. It's so far above other builds that it honestly is quite sad as you don't have to sacrifice anything to get everything. It's the most versatile with the most options by FAR. IB is the roaming equivalent to group KOTBS when it comes to amount of amazing options/abilities. Obviously balance has been gutted for years but genuinely asking, how exactly is that fair?

It's strong, yes, but you do need to sacrifice a lot of defense in order to deal damage, or at least that's my case.

I still think Chosen is stronger, which is fine.

[Shieldslam]

Now tell me where the downsides are, besides looking bland because I genuinely cannot see it. No stealth? No pull? No Pounce like WL/SM M2? Strictly for 1v1/1v2 that is. Stacking Grudge can be annoying, I have to admit, but once you get going after a few seconds it's fine so I guess that's a minor downside. IB has always been known to be one of the best choices for solo, just barely anyone wanted to play them.
The reason there are so many Chosen solo'ing is because the class genuinely is strong even if played badly, doesn't require a lot of maintenance or effort, magical dmg/Cleave/ToP (same as IB punishing blow but spirit dmg)/passive dmg, range stagger to catch up, looking amazing (opinion based but come on) while still being desired for every part of the game so it's a perfect main class to do everything on.

IB 2H roam is more less r.i.p since they removed GnM and nerfed abilities, hence you don't see many anymore roaming solo because they all retired( myself included, BIS IB for 2 years & experienced, student of Volgograd ). On the other hand 2H chosens are everywhere, go figure. Magic->Physical.

Now in a straight up duel a SnB will be strong, we're talking 1vs1 with no interference, but again someone who wants to counter you can easily do it since SnB dps won't be too high and the tools to counter physical damage are many.

In the real rvr, that is outside of a duel in the arena, one can ignore a SnB IB tank for most part unless you honor the duel with him, their damage just isn't there , dangerous classes will be WL's, SW'S , AM's etc.

A tank in the end is just a tank, slow, lacks escapes and is easily surrounded/ganked/manipulated but strong cc and debuffs. The times tanks are dangerous is in groups, punting and assisting real dps and with a healer behind them.

For this reason i do not complain much about the Chosen although i do recognize they're overtuned in def/regen spec, but more a problem of imbalanced magic in general.

TL;dr Tanks are easily outmaneuvered which is why they are probably the worst archetype to solo roam with. IB is no exception.

I agree that 2h got significantly nerfed (I still cry myself to sleep over losing Bolstering Anger, the BG equivalent of G&M which for me was THE class defining ability) however I'd argue 2h IB is still viable, not at the top but playable. It's not a dead build. To be honest though apart from Volgograd back then I don't remember too many IB players in general, it always (to me at least) seemed to have a low popularity .. both SnB and 2h. But indeed, ignore the IB and punt him or whatever, no reason to fight those at all.

As mentioned there are many reasons 2h Chosens are running around everywhere and I'm absolutely certain that a lot of it comes down to style and ease of play plus obviously being pretty good. They have downsides, they have counters, they have troubles of their own but they look great. Since the dawn of time people have played 2h Chosen, wether it was good or not because it feels and looks awesome. Them being strong currently sure contributes to some amount of players but I'd argue, considering the past, many are just enjoying the fantasy of the class.

I think we have reached a point, generally, where we just have to agree that things are just the way they are. There doesn't seem to be much sense to complain about this or that in regards to solo, it's screaming into the void. There have been very few changes over the years to solo (like WE/WH changes a while ago) but only when something is absolutely off the charts like those two solo'ing 3-4 ppl at once and since nothing like that is around anymore the chances for changes are incredibly small. Some things are overtuned and will likely just stay that way unfortunately. Wether it's regen Chosen, def WE, clown spec IB, regen WL, Shaman&Am or whatever it may be, accepting it seems to be the only reasonable thing to do.

[Moonbiter]

2h chosen is a very good solo fighter atm:
regen + parry + spirit dmg works pretty well.

[Tisaya]

If you look at Veretta, the posterchild of regen builds, then regen isn't much of a problem since Withdrew was nerfed. Great for trolling 1 vs 1, has no damage to do anything outside of such situations.

[Speedyluck]

they are all garbage outside of solo roaming.

[Ouzoul]

2h chosen is a very good solo fighter atm:
regen + parry + spirit dmg works pretty well.

2H chosen is strong yes but you don't fight WE tank/regen so you don't know (usualy 1V1 fight because yes this game is also a solo roaming game ex:WE and WH)
My point is to just remove this chest i don't ask to nerf regen/tank build just remove this 184hp/4s Chest for all class !
thx guys.