[AtD and WaL] IB

[Alubert]

Many buffs/debuffs have been changed so that ST buffs/debuffs are stronger than aoe buffs/debuffs.
Following the same logic, I would like to propose two changes to IB for consideration.
1. Avenging the Dept - duration from 3 to 6/10 sec.
(The current duration of 3 sec is too short and the skill has a 30 sec CD).
2. Watch An' Learn - 20 sec CD to 10 sec CD and WS component also works on Oathfriend.
(BO WS buff has no CD. Order has no buff to WS. It is an ST skill and requires Oathfriend buff).

[nocturnalguest]

Agree and support.
6 seconds for AtD would be in line with unification logic imo

[gersy]

Regarding AtD, I do not think it needs any form of buff. Mobility is the most powerful "stat" in the game by a massive margin and giving it a buff is entering dangerous territory (if it was buffed to 10 seconds as per your suggestion you'd have 15 seconds of root/snare immunity combined with Juggernaut (currently 8 seconds) which is very overpowered imo). The recent patch targeted main stat buffs/debuffs, not abilities like this, so I don't think that reasoning can apply here.


AtD is one of the strongest abilities of IB when used correctly and is one of the core components of what allows IB to be such a monster in coordinated gameplay. Can use it to peel your healers from afar, save yourself, save your cross guard partner, to save your mdps when his root break is on CD or simply use it so he doesn't have to use his.


It is an incredibly effective tool for coordinated 6/12/18/24man organized orvr gameplay, as well, not just for smallscale. Combine with cross-guard with another IB and such tactics as Avalanche and Unstoppable Juggernaut, m2/m4 rotations, Leading the Charge from 8pc defsov and you become nigh-immortal and can fish for punts all day with almost no risk. There are a couple strong 6-12man teams who are actively using dual IB for cross-guard punt play and they are able to quite easily facetank both pug and lesser organized warbands (as in 24-48+ guys hitting these IBs, and the IBs are surviving just fine when rotating CDs properly) while fishing punts with low risk of dying. AtD is a large part of why this works, as it is an extra get-out-of-jail-free card with a self heal component. Although I suspect most players are likely using it incorrectly, wasting it, or simply not utilizing it to full potential.


As far as WaL this ability could perhaps use some tweaks. Order does have a 2 (aoe) buff(s) to WS in the form of SM stat steal proc and Slayer's Fierceness. Allowing it to grant your oathbuddy some WS doesn't sound like a terrible idea. It's also an AP pump however so adding extra functionality to it is tricky balance wise.

[nocturnalguest]

Spoiler:

Regarding AtD, I do not think it needs any form of buff. Mobility is the most powerful "stat" in the game by a massive margin and giving it a buff is entering dangerous territory (if it was buffed to 10 seconds as per your suggestion you'd have 15 seconds of root/snare immunity combined with Juggernaut (currently 8 seconds) which is very overpowered imo). The recent patch targeted main stat buffs/debuffs, not abilities like this, so I don't think that reasoning can apply here.


AtD is one of the strongest abilities of IB when used correctly and is one of the core components of what allows IB to be such a monster in coordinated gameplay. Can use it to peel your healers from afar, save yourself, save your cross guard partner, to save your mdps when his root break is on CD or simply use it so he doesn't have to use his.


It is an incredibly effective tool for coordinated 6/12/18/24man organized orvr gameplay, as well, not just for smallscale. Combine with cross-guard with another IB and such tactics as Avalanche and Unstoppable Juggernaut, m2/m4 rotations, Leading the Charge from 8pc defsov and you become nigh-immortal and can fish for punts all day with almost no risk. There are a couple strong 6-12man teams who are actively using dual IB for cross-guard punt play and they are able to quite easily facetank both pug and lesser organized warbands (as in 24-48+ guys hitting these IBs, and the IBs are surviving just fine when rotating CDs properly) while fishing punts with low risk of dying. AtD is a large part of why this works, as it is an extra get-out-of-jail-free card with a self heal component. Although I suspect most players are likely using it incorrectly, wasting it, or simply not utilizing it to full potential.


As far as WaL this ability could perhaps use some tweaks. Order does have a 2 (aoe) buff(s) to WS in the form of SM stat steal proc and Slayer's Fierceness. Allowing it to grant your oathbuddy some WS doesn't sound like a terrible idea. It's also an AP pump however so adding extra functionality to it is tricky balance wise.

Nobody claimed AtD is underperforming, however design logic as for IB/SM/BO is clear and timer is 6, this one being an outliner. Need to unify.
In regards to how best of the best perform i will say that best of the best will be fine and create a wreckage and havoc into regular players anyday with anything, that was never a justification for balancing, but actually quite the opposite (hello 1 button wl, fs on choppa and many other cool things, passive proc meta necroed for 3rd time etc). Here is a very solid proof viewtopic.php?t=55844#p573646 (in case you missed out and i think you did, afaik you were absent back then, quick tl;dr - TUP&BT launch joint RP theme event, after hour+ of the event destro boycot oRvR, gather up and RP in IC and in paralel tears flow thru 30+ pages of forum whinning, obviously next patch RP gets butchered cause majority cant position/move/counter)
You are absolutely correct tho, most simply cant utilize it to its full potential thus outliner could be brought into strict unification logic. Why not?
That would be better balance for majority. I believe its quite simply said in OP post. Also change will skyrocket benefits for competetive organised play but i dont think it will become very terrible. Majority will have way more time to do stuff within 6 seconds and what they will do not gonna be anyhow gamebreaking.

[Fey]

Juggernaut grants snare immunity, and I've never used it preemptively. I feel kinda stupid.

[Alubert]

Regarding AtD, I do not think it needs any form of buff. Mobility is the most powerful "stat" in the game by a massive margin and giving it a buff is entering dangerous territory (if it was buffed to 10 seconds as per your suggestion you'd have 15 seconds of root/snare immunity combined with Juggernaut (currently 8 seconds) which is very overpowered imo). The recent patch targeted main stat buffs/debuffs, not abilities like this, so I don't think that reasoning can apply here.


AtD is one of the strongest abilities of IB when used correctly and is one of the core components of what allows IB to be such a monster in coordinated gameplay. Can use it to peel your healers from afar, save yourself, save your cross guard partner, to save your mdps when his root break is on CD or simply use it so he doesn't have to use his.


It is an incredibly effective tool for coordinated 6/12/18/24man organized orvr gameplay, as well, not just for smallscale. Combine with cross-guard with another IB and such tactics as Avalanche and Unstoppable Juggernaut, m2/m4 rotations, Leading the Charge from 8pc defsov and you become nigh-immortal and can fish for punts all day with almost no risk. There are a couple strong 6-12man teams who are actively using dual IB for cross-guard punt play and they are able to quite easily facetank both pug and lesser organized warbands (as in 24-48+ guys hitting these IBs, and the IBs are surviving just fine when rotating CDs properly) while fishing punts with low risk of dying. AtD is a large part of why this works, as it is an extra get-out-of-jail-free card with a self heal component. Although I suspect most players are likely using it incorrectly, wasting it, or simply not utilizing it to full potential.


As far as WaL this ability could perhaps use some tweaks. Order does have a 2 (aoe) buff(s) to WS in the form of SM stat steal proc and Slayer's Fierceness. Allowing it to grant your oathbuddy some WS doesn't sound like a terrible idea. It's also an AP pump however so adding extra functionality to it is tricky balance wise.

I understand your logic, but 3 seconds is really too short.
6 seconds might encourage me to change my build.
For now, I don't see anything better than a 10% crit buff from the left, a 20% parry buff from the middle, and a 25% AA dmg buff from the right.
Fixing this skill would open up other possible specs.
As for the WS buff, sm/SL buffs also have destro.
The point is that the order should also have a skill like the spammable BO Fallow me Lead.
The IB WS buff would have a 10-second CD and would require Oathfriend, which takes more time than changing only the defensive target in the case of BO.

[Wdova]

I would also add that devs should consider either removing CD from Guarded attack or, make it proc on attack or at least reduce it to like 5s. It´s one of these single target buffs that proc only if you actualy HIT target, not just attack it. SnB tanks has low strenght in general and most of hits are often blocked or parried. Having 20s CD on such skill is nonsence if we consider fact that ammount of armor it provides was also reduced due to stacking rules.

Even with 5s CD I can imagine I could maintain the buff on 2 ppl max consider fact that it require to land hit and all other actions tank has to do in wabrand enviroment (ST snare, AOE snare, punts, challenge, HTL, ST Knockdown, switching guard, switching oathfriend, parry buff, toughness buff etc. etc.)

[vanbuinen77]

The abilities are fine.

No change needed.

[Wdova]

The abilities are fine.

No change needed.

Thanks for input from someone who haven´t touched the class and don´t have to deal with shortcomings on daily basis.