Remove solo queue from Scenarions

[nocturnalguest]

@dasparkylad
thats obvious smurf baiting, click on nickname and see when account was created. it was created today 12:55 pm

[Nikt]

@dasparkylad
thats obvious smurf baiting, click on nickname and see when account was created. it was created today 12:55 pm

What goin on - i have amrauder 67 rr - NIKT its polish "Nobody" , in Agony.
I'm trying to understand what's going on, not baiting.

[Tushi]

This post is no different than any of the others that pop up quite regularly, and I doubt anything will really change regardless of what's said, the thread has just devolved into two sides that are incapable of seeing things from anyone else's perspective other than their own.
I'll weigh in with my thoughts as to how to improve the sc situation anyway, in my opinion at least.

This is coming from someone whose favoured way of playing the game is in a duo/trio. But usually ends up soloing if the few people I regularly play with aren't on at the time. Played in 6 man premades in the past, but now I very rarely, if ever, bother to join one. I also used to primarily play scs over rvr, but now never queue for a sc outside the event scs, and of those I skip any weekend where the designated sc is one I dislike. For these I usually just solo queue, occasionally duo/trio.

The fundamental problem, is that there are simply not enough people queuing for sc. There isn't the population in place for it to be divided further with designated qeueus for soloers/premades without further negatively impacting them, and most ideas to improve aspects of the scenario situation will always be ineffective and half-baked due to the lacking population.

Therefore, the most important thing to do for the health of scenarios, before you even consider any queue/group changes, is to actually incentivise random people to play them. Unfortunately, with the current state of the RoR playerbase, that means there has to be a carrot introduced to make it worth their while. Currently there is absolutely no reason to play them to progress your character (outside weekend scs). You don't queue for them unless you enjoy the format of smaller fights enough that you put up with the disparity in rewards offered for the time you put in. The renown offered is paltry compared to rvr, the crest rewards are lower than you can gain in rvr, there is no reward that's exclusive to scs, the higher experience obviously means nothing for rank 40s, and is in many ways a detriment to sub 40s where the general consensus is that it's preferable to ding rank 40 with at least 50+ rr, ideally 58+. Something that is extremely unlikely to happen if you level primarily through scs rather than rvr. To top that off, you'll end up well behind in your gear grind too with fewer gear pieces and a smaller crest stack.

The simplest solution for this, is to just balance the rr/crest rewards, which are the only real factors that matter in your account progression. Balance them so that choosing to do scs over rvr is a viable option to further your character with similar rates of progression. You could also add in minor cosmetic rewards made available with an exclusive currency from scs, or via something akin to the rvr weekly reward track, with a 7 day mount as the final reward. Just something that increases the number of people playing scs. There are a myriad of problems with scs, but solutions to most of these are just impossible with the current population playing them.


Let's say that something has been done to incentivise people to queue up, and the sc population is relatively healthy. Now changes can be made that actually have a reasonable chance of working as intended, without negatively impacting the people queuing in the form of longer queue times and instantly being labelled a failure/nonviable as a result. Then the most important thing becomes party balance.

Sorry soloers, solo queue only scs should just never be a thing (unless the population becomes so high and stable that it's possible without impacting the main queue in any way), and I say this as someone that primarily queues scs solo. It isn't how the game is designed to play, and it's entitled and selfish to feel that the game should cater to you to give you an easier time at the expense of others who are playing as they should be. The most common argument you hear is that "premades are just farming pugs because they want ez mode", which sounds a lot like "I want ez mode by blocking any possibility of meeting anything more organised than me". If they take the time to form groups and make proper comps, they should have that advantage.
With a higher population pool to draw on, steps can be made to alleviate that imbalance though. With a larger pop, it would be possible to actually force proper party makeups as a prerequisite before a pop can occur. Similar to solo ranked, but less cut and dry 2/2/2. More leeway should be allowed. i.e 1/3/2 comps. 6 man groups should be able to bypass these requirements (possibly with some exceptions like 6 dps meme groups), but any pug group should be forced into 2 healer and minimum 1 tank setups before the sc pops. It's sad that it would probably be a requirement, but they should probably be default sorted into those groups when they actually get into the sc too, as apparently the majority of the ror pop can't move groups themselves.

Might edit or post again to add more, but this is long enough

[Culexus]

Thinking about this more, this really could work if a proper group finder were introduced to the game. The more I think about it, the more I think it could actually be a better solution to the problem than a matchmaker.

If we had a proper group finder rather than relying on /5, it would be way easier to form groups for scenarios, dungeons, warbands, and cities. With a single place to join and manage groups for all content, players could select the content they want to play and be auto-assigned to a group that is also looking for that content. Once the group is full, the group can then join the content they want through the group finder itself. This would essentially do the same thing as a matchmaker, but also encourages group play, rather than players getting siloed off even more into solo than they already are, with all the problems that brings.

Here are two images of group finders from SWTOR and WoW for example:

groupfinder02_854x480.jpg (285.39 KiB) Viewed 295 times

733305.jpg (132.64 KiB) Viewed 295 times

[Tushi]

Thinking about this more, this really could work if a proper group finder were introduced to the game. The more I think about it, the more I think it could actually be a better solution to the problem than a matchmaker.

If we had a proper group finder rather than relying on /5, it would be way easier to form groups for scenarios, dungeons, warbands, and cities. With a single place to join and manage groups for all content, players could select the content they want to play and be auto-assigned to a group that is also looking for that content. Once the group is full, the group can then join the content they want through the group finder itself. This would essentially do the same thing as a matchmaker, but also encourages group play, rather than players getting siloed off even more into solo than they already are, with all the problems that brings.

Here are two images of group finders from SWTOR and WoW for example:


groupfinder02_854x480.jpg

733305.jpg

This would only work if you literally couldn't queue outside of a group though, which would kill pops entirely, and would achieve absolutely nothing if you could still queue solo, as everyone would still just continue do that. People give too much credit to the RoR playerbase which is full of people who won't even swap parties inside the sc they just joined, let alone go to any effort to organise themselves beforehand. Unfortunately, for any sort of balancing to work, the majority of the slack has to be picked up by automated systems.

[Culexus]

Thinking about this more, this really could work if a proper group finder were introduced to the game. The more I think about it, the more I think it could actually be a better solution to the problem than a matchmaker.

If we had a proper group finder rather than relying on /5, it would be way easier to form groups for scenarios, dungeons, warbands, and cities. With a single place to join and manage groups for all content, players could select the content they want to play and be auto-assigned to a group that is also looking for that content. Once the group is full, the group can then join the content they want through the group finder itself. This would essentially do the same thing as a matchmaker, but also encourages group play, rather than players getting siloed off even more into solo than they already are, with all the problems that brings.

Here are two images of group finders from SWTOR and WoW for example:


groupfinder02_854x480.jpg

733305.jpg

This would only work if you literally couldn't queue outside of a group though, which would kill pops entirely, and would achieve absolutely nothing if you could still queue solo, as everyone would still just continue do that. People give too much credit to the RoR playerbase which is full of people who won't even swap parties inside the sc they just joined, let alone go to any effort to organise themselves beforehand. Unfortunately, for any sort of balancing to work, the majority of the slack has to be picked up by automated systems.

Only being able to queue as a group would be the whole point. It would essentially be the same as joining a sc now, but the player would join the group finder and select 'scenario' as the content they wish to group for. The group finder would then place them in a group, and once it's full, they can join the scenario. No more solos vs premades, as now every group is a premade. Adding the feature to make a main assist in the group finder could encourage players to actually work together for a change. It would also stop the whole "there are premades in the solo queue" every time 2 players hit the same target, which will definitely happen if scenarios go primarily solo.

RoR is a game based around groups, but there are so many players (gonna say it, mainly dps) with a mentality of "it's all about me" that players feel that those around them are just NPCs that exist only to support their solo fun. The main reason people want this matchmaking system is so they can get guard and heals without all the bother of having to play in an actual group with people who expect them to work with each other. The more this mindset is catered to and encouraged, the worse it's going to get.

No one thinks twice about having to join a group for content in any other MMO, but for some reason RoR players seem to think it doesn't apply here, and worse than that, that it's actually a bad thing.

[shoelessHN]

Thinking about this more, this really could work if a proper group finder were introduced to the game. The more I think about it, the more I think it could actually be a better solution to the problem than a matchmaker.

If we had a proper group finder rather than relying on /5, it would be way easier to form groups for scenarios, dungeons, warbands, and cities. With a single place to join and manage groups for all content, players could select the content they want to play and be auto-assigned to a group that is also looking for that content. Once the group is full, the group can then join the content they want through the group finder itself. This would essentially do the same thing as a matchmaker, but also encourages group play, rather than players getting siloed off even more into solo than they already are, with all the problems that brings.

Here are two images of group finders from SWTOR and WoW for example:


groupfinder02_854x480.jpg

733305.jpg

This would only work if you literally couldn't queue outside of a group though, which would kill pops entirely, and would achieve absolutely nothing if you could still queue solo, as everyone would still just continue do that. People give too much credit to the RoR playerbase which is full of people who won't even swap parties inside the sc they just joined, let alone go to any effort to organise themselves beforehand. Unfortunately, for any sort of balancing to work, the majority of the slack has to be picked up by automated systems.

Won't and do not even know how are two different things.

The one thing not talked about enough is the huge skill/gear/game knowledge gaps in the player base which impacts the outcomes of sc far more than anyone wants to admit.

It's just assumed 6 people playing together are going to at least be slightly higher on the skill area, and in my experience true as when some bad random joins the group they don't really last that long.

The only way to get "balance" is to add a hidden MMR rating for all players. Then only pop sc's if the sides are balanced (within some % total of each other's total MMR), regardless of pug vs group, group vs group, pug vs pug. That still likely kills the sc system as I do not see most people queuing looking for a fair fight (at least in t4).

[Nameless]

Why ppl keep comparing ranked 6v6 to normal scens. These modes are completely different, the playstyle, the specs, the comps are nothing alike. Being at 12v12 or 18v18 compare to 6v6 is totally different game.
So i dont like so much ranked 6v6 (although i got 70ish games) but i like to play in premade at normal scen selection. And that is so not because i like to farm pugs but cos the game play is different.

On the topic: devs should ateast bring ranked queu hub for normal scens, how hard it could be?

[Kornaker]

A good idea could be to add an add on wich will have 2 part:
- you search a group, with your spec and RR, when you click, automatic message on /5 ( so everyone could see and more easy to add after). And you have a countdown 15min so you can do this every 15min( and if you left no one will see anymore the message).
- you search a guy for your group, choose heal tank or dps with RR, click on search and have the 15min guys on queue on a list, when click automatic wisp with " hi you want to join?" And you just have to click right invite group.

Will be standardised message so the add on could found every stat needed. And if a guy in /5 don't use the add on can do this too by going by same message.

[dasparkylad]

This post is no different than any of the others that pop up quite regularly, and I doubt anything will really change regardless of what's said, the thread has just devolved into two sides that are incapable of seeing things from anyone else's perspective other than their own.
I'll weigh in with my thoughts as to how to improve the sc situation anyway, in my opinion at least.

This is coming from someone whose favoured way of playing the game is in a duo/trio. But usually ends up soloing if the few people I regularly play with aren't on at the time. Played in 6 man premades in the past, but now I very rarely, if ever, bother to join one. I also used to primarily play scs over rvr, but now never queue for a sc outside the event scs, and of those I skip any weekend where the designated sc is one I dislike. For these I usually just solo queue, occasionally duo/trio.

The fundamental problem, is that there are simply not enough people queuing for sc. There isn't the population in place for it to be divided further with designated qeueus for soloers/premades without further negatively impacting them, and most ideas to improve aspects of the scenario situation will always be ineffective and half-baked due to the lacking population.

Therefore, the most important thing to do for the health of scenarios, before you even consider any queue/group changes, is to actually incentivise random people to play them. Unfortunately, with the current state of the RoR playerbase, that means there has to be a carrot introduced to make it worth their while. Currently there is absolutely no reason to play them to progress your character (outside weekend scs). You don't queue for them unless you enjoy the format of smaller fights enough that you put up with the disparity in rewards offered for the time you put in. The renown offered is paltry compared to rvr, the crest rewards are lower than you can gain in rvr, there is no reward that's exclusive to scs, the higher experience obviously means nothing for rank 40s, and is in many ways a detriment to sub 40s where the general consensus is that it's preferable to ding rank 40 with at least 50+ rr, ideally 58+. Something that is extremely unlikely to happen if you level primarily through scs rather than rvr. To top that off, you'll end up well behind in your gear grind too with fewer gear pieces and a smaller crest stack.

The simplest solution for this, is to just balance the rr/crest rewards, which are the only real factors that matter in your account progression. Balance them so that choosing to do scs over rvr is a viable option to further your character with similar rates of progression. You could also add in minor cosmetic rewards made available with an exclusive currency from scs, or via something akin to the rvr weekly reward track, with a 7 day mount as the final reward. Just something that increases the number of people playing scs. There are a myriad of problems with scs, but solutions to most of these are just impossible with the current population playing them.


Let's say that something has been done to incentivise people to queue up, and the sc population is relatively healthy. Now changes can be made that actually have a reasonable chance of working as intended, without negatively impacting the people queuing in the form of longer queue times and instantly being labelled a failure/nonviable as a result. Then the most important thing becomes party balance.

Sorry soloers, solo queue only scs should just never be a thing (unless the population becomes so high and stable that it's possible without impacting the main queue in any way), and I say this as someone that primarily queues scs solo. It isn't how the game is designed to play, and it's entitled and selfish to feel that the game should cater to you to give you an easier time at the expense of others who are playing as they should be. The most common argument you hear is that "premades are just farming pugs because they want ez mode", which sounds a lot like "I want ez mode by blocking any possibility of meeting anything more organised than me". If they take the time to form groups and make proper comps, they should have that advantage.
With a higher population pool to draw on, steps can be made to alleviate that imbalance though. With a larger pop, it would be possible to actually force proper party makeups as a prerequisite before a pop can occur. Similar to solo ranked, but less cut and dry 2/2/2. More leeway should be allowed. i.e 1/3/2 comps. 6 man groups should be able to bypass these requirements (possibly with some exceptions like 6 dps meme groups), but any pug group should be forced into 2 healer and minimum 1 tank setups before the sc pops. It's sad that it would probably be a requirement, but they should probably be default sorted into those groups when they actually get into the sc too, as apparently the majority of the ror pop can't move groups themselves.

Might edit or post again to add more, but this is long enough

I definitely agree the rewards also need revamping, I enjoy scenarios and would be more willing to try and put up with the crap if it at least offered reasonable rewards, but ye as you said more exp, less renown, less crests, no genesis crests so you'll be some fairly good gear for starting out at 40, its just all bad.

Now if they added in the equivalent of genesis gear with something you gained from scenarios, upped the crests so its at least better than RvR without locks, and made it so you'd hit rr50-58 at r40 then ye that would definitely help as well, as ye honestly even if scenarios were balanced I'd still only play them when I hit 40 because of those reasons, and they'd still be a noob trap at lower ranks.