Grimmshimmer and fleshrenders

[dasparkylad]

I'd prefer if their usage was restricted to tanks before it was outright nerfed or even removed, at least as far as jewel pieces go. A lot of tank sets already have many pieces with regen as a normal part of it. Shimmer is definitely a problem though, wouldn't mind that getting the axe.

It's a bigger pain in the ass imo, when you allow that level of defense for every single class in the game, especially with classes that already have survivability they have no business having to begin with, like WE and WH.

Yep, DPS that can setup a solid regen build are just doing so as its so powerful right now, and I'd rather those builds be nerfed or removed than have every DPS get access to one.

[Faction69]

Regen in general needs to be looked at for the health of small scale.

[Murador]

Let's see how this issue is solved in Elder Scrolls Online

I played my fair shair ESO years ago - before they homogized everything. And well you dont have that problem in ESO because every decent build/player wont die in a 1v1 in under 5-10 minutes or at all. And building defense is was vast superior in duels as defensive items gave like 3k armor/mresist while offensive gave 1.Xk pen. I'm pretty sure ESO is the last game we should copy anything from.

Concerning regen: On my rather new WE I'm playing around with regen WB vs OKYs - well regen + defensive stats just feels stronger. But tbh in the end it doesn't matter so much - the biggest problem is to find fights with about similar numbers.

[SuperStar]

To OP:
I don't see any problem here.

This game is not a 1v1 game. Don't expect 1v1 balance.

If you want to play 1v1, you can, but the game isn't balanced for that, so you have to accept it. I think you play a lot alone. If I remember correctly, you played a lot with full deftard characters with huge defense, lots of cc, and classes with triple potions and self-healing.

Now you're playing with classcannon bork and suddenly 180hp/4sec bothers you. Didn't engi keg bother you for years? Your magus self-heal? The 3 potions in 1v1 battle?

Isn't that backwards, isn't that weird?

You're a sensible player, but even you have such a self-centered suggestion.

I find that embarrassing.
What can we expect from the others?

Unfortunately, it's been a long time since almost no one has been looking at the game as a whole, but rather at how to be more successful with their current favorite.

It's sad.

[Pahakukka]

To OP:
I don't see any problem here.

This game is not a 1v1 game. Don't expect 1v1 balance.

If you want to play 1v1, you can, but the game isn't balanced for that, so you have to accept it. I think you play a lot alone. If I remember correctly, you played a lot with full deftard characters with huge defense, lots of cc, and classes with triple potions and self-healing.

Now you're playing with classcannon bork and suddenly 180hp/4sec bothers you. Didn't engi keg bother you for years? Your magus self-heal? The 3 potions in 1v1 battle?

Isn't that backwards, isn't that weird?

You're a sensible player, but even you have such a self-centered suggestion.

I find that embarrassing.
What can we expect from the others?

Unfortunately, it's been a long time since almost no one has been looking at the game as a whole, but rather at how to be more successful with their current favorite.

It's sad.

I'm sure plenty of people are waiting for this reply as this has the prospects of turning into forum gold , but I'll bite.

I don't really expect the 1v1 balance to happen, but I would love to see the most extreme cases (ie builds with no real counter) tuned down, and i strongly advocate for more active gameplay instead of the passive one that's solo meta atm. 180hp/4s in 4s won't bother me, its the 400-500 hp/4s with full toughness/armor stack and max parry on top of that what bothers me. tuning down grimmshimmer and fleshrenders is in my opinion called for, as they are clearly over performing for the item level. It also might be easier to tune these down rather than the complete regen mechanic (to have heal debuffs affect regen for example)

I did have both magus and engineer in very defensive builds, but I think that only makes my point more valid. I can tell with first-hand experience that gameplay is a lot more interesting with active specs where you don't win by dotting up and face tanking stuff. I have shared the clip where my magus AFK tanks some wh while im alt-tabbed, and also have beaten IB with riposte choppa by using only arrow keys to face the ib as he ran around. (tho this was with the slightly broken riposte period where riposte got dmg increase from rage mechanic). What comes to healing abilities of magus and engineer, they dont bother me too much. Aegis can be shattered, and keg is 2s cast, short range heal that can be heal-debuffed, both have counters.

The recent blork clips I made, were made with ultra squishy spec, mostly to showcase the dmg potential of crit blork, but that is not only character I play. Recently I been active with many classes, im not sure which one of them is my favourite. RDPS is by far the easiest to solo with. I do realize there are different things annoying me depending on the class / faction i play, but this sustain build conversation is a larger issue by far.

I also like to think that my skill has increased a lot after I changed into dps only specs. I have saved all my clips in my YT channel, so if you compare early magus/engi ones to more recent you can make up your own mind which one is more interesting gameplay. There was a whole different thread about skill issues not too long ago, and one thing affecting is that these ultra tanky builds won't challenge players enough. They either win against dps, or draw against rest.

I don’t see potions as a big issue. They’re accessible to everyone and come with trade-offs like GCD use and timing. I skip them in duels but use them in open RvR where anything can happen.

Often people argue in favor of these defensive specs as the only way to counter these stealther gank groups, but I'm not sure if that is healthy approach either. I don't believe any single toon should be able to counter a group.

And lastly: To call me biased for advocating for less sustain/passive 1v1 meta instead of this regen/toughess abomination we have now, I would like to make sure you are completely neutral about it and not running full regen setup yourself, as it would undermine this promising little forum argument we are about to have (rather than the usual discord scrollfest there is usually)

[mazi761111]

GrimmShimmer and Fleshrenders are not the key. The key is defense build + regen gear (for example, my chosen replacement does not need GrimmShimmer. I need Fleshrenders not for regen but reduce amorpen). I think if want to change, need to change my class sikll and tactics.
But I don’t think dev has the ability to balance anything.

[Stinksuit]

Grimshimmer is one of those items that is a bit too strong for its ilvl, for me its a bit weird that you have full sov people with some random lvl 36 blue chest.
I like that we got annulus rings nowadays because it also felt a bit odd to use cr36 rings (genesis) as your bis rings.

One solution to fleshrenders would be to just make it unique equipped.

I dont mind reasonable amount of regen, let's say like the one you get from warlord chest (which all classes have afaik) and few other actual end game items for tanks along side with pocket mushroom. I think using actual end game gear with balanced amount of regen is justified but just stacking regen and defenses till you basically have a active hot pot on 24/7 seems a bit much especially when there is no way to reduce this healing.

I suppose this kind of conversation will never end though since people have their own expectations from the game and they're free to do so. Some prefer the super slow tanky regen gameplay while others prefer faster gameplay, where 1 misplay can cost you the fight.

[Farrul]

I don't really expect the 1v1 balance to happen, but I would love to see the most extreme cases (ie builds with no real counter) tuned down, and i strongly advocate for more active gameplay instead of the passive one that's solo meta atm. 180hp/4s in 4s won't bother me, its the 400-500 hp/4s with full toughness/armor stack and max parry on top of that what bothers me. tuning down grimmshimmer and fleshrenders is in my opinion called for, as they are clearly over performing for the item level. It also might be easier to tune these down rather than the complete regen mechanic (to have heal debuffs affect regen for example)

I did have both magus and engineer in very defensive builds, but I think that only makes my point more valid. I can tell with first-hand experience that gameplay is a lot more interesting with active specs where you don't win by dotting up and face tanking stuff. I have shared the clip where my magus AFK tanks some wh while im alt-tabbed, and also have beaten IB with riposte choppa by using only arrow keys to face the ib as he ran around. (tho this was with the slightly broken riposte period where riposte got dmg increase from rage mechanic). What comes to healing abilities of magus and engineer, they dont bother me too much. Aegis can be shattered, and keg is 2s cast, short range heal that can be heal-debuffed, both have counters.

The MAIN problem with nerfing regen gear is that some classes would benefit from it at the expense of others.

RDPS in particular would become stronger than ever, i.e Shaman / Am / Magus dots etc are very oppressive to melee characters. If this is nerfed, who would benefit? RDPS and healer classes. Stealth classes are less affected since they still maintain the element of surprise.

So you mention an important point, the fact that Magus ( engineer to a lesser extent) felt broken with regen gear, that's because they're ranged. Ranged classes do absolutely not need sustain on top of kite/rdps. However melee - none stealthed none healer characters does need it to stand a chance vs dots. Otherwise you're goin to get a RDPS meta worse than ever before in the small scale roaming. Many will quit.

I agree with you that deftard meta is bad, but i disagree that nerfing regen gear is a good solution. Instead i would propose to restrict regen gear to tank classes, and none stealthed mdps classes. Grimmershimmer could have different stats for ranged, healer, stealth classes.

I dont think fleshrenders have enough regen on them to make any difference, just leave them be. The main thing about fleshrender rings is the 2% armor pen reduction on tank classes, 40 regen isn't too much. Just a little counter vs dots. One could prevent Magus/engineer etc to have access to the regen rings and just the other fleshrender versions without regen.

P.S. I mention this as a general point on regen, since you got people in this thread that whish to see a universal nerf of regen gear, as for Grimmershimmer per se, i don't think nerfing it a little would be a bad thing, e.g 120 regen. Tanks have access to Warlord chest anyway.

[nocturnalguest]

Spoiler:

I'm sure plenty of people are waiting for this reply as this has the prospects of turning into forum gold , but I'll bite.

I don't really expect the 1v1 balance to happen, but I would love to see the most extreme cases (ie builds with no real counter) tuned down, and i strongly advocate for more active gameplay instead of the passive one that's solo meta atm. 180hp/4s in 4s won't bother me, its the 400-500 hp/4s with full toughness/armor stack and max parry on top of that what bothers me. tuning down grimmshimmer and fleshrenders is in my opinion called for, as they are clearly over performing for the item level. It also might be easier to tune these down rather than the complete regen mechanic (to have heal debuffs affect regen for example)

I did have both magus and engineer in very defensive builds, but I think that only makes my point more valid. I can tell with first-hand experience that gameplay is a lot more interesting with active specs where you don't win by dotting up and face tanking stuff. I have shared the clip where my magus AFK tanks some wh while im alt-tabbed, and also have beaten IB with riposte choppa by using only arrow keys to face the ib as he ran around. (tho this was with the slightly broken riposte period where riposte got dmg increase from rage mechanic). What comes to healing abilities of magus and engineer, they dont bother me too much. Aegis can be shattered, and keg is 2s cast, short range heal that can be heal-debuffed, both have counters.

The recent blork clips I made, were made with ultra squishy spec, mostly to showcase the dmg potential of crit blork, but that is not only character I play. Recently I been active with many classes, im not sure which one of them is my favourite. RDPS is by far the easiest to solo with. I do realize there are different things annoying me depending on the class / faction i play, but this sustain build conversation is a larger issue by far.

I also like to think that my skill has increased a lot after I changed into dps only specs. I have saved all my clips in my YT channel, so if you compare early magus/engi ones to more recent you can make up your own mind which one is more interesting gameplay. There was a whole different thread about skill issues not too long ago, and one thing affecting is that these ultra tanky builds won't challenge players enough. They either win against dps, or draw against rest.

I don’t see potions as a big issue. They’re accessible to everyone and come with trade-offs like GCD use and timing. I skip them in duels but use them in open RvR where anything can happen.

Often people argue in favor of these defensive specs as the only way to counter these stealther gank groups, but I'm not sure if that is healthy approach either. I don't believe any single toon should be able to counter a group.

And lastly: To call me biased for advocating for less sustain/passive 1v1 meta instead of this regen/toughess abomination we have now, I would like to make sure you are completely neutral about it and not running full regen setup yourself, as it would undermine this promising little forum argument we are about to have (rather than the usual discord scrollfest there is usually)

For the sake of discussion im also taking the bait and would like to go into exact details

(ie builds with no real counter)

I cant see such classes/builds/archetypes. I will be brave enough to claim they dont exist. Recently ive done some kinda brief look into that and here are my findings for the class that has highest whine rate
viewtopic.php?t=59520&start=20#p584265
Nobody asked me which ones ive been looking at, but i DM them to you to keep discussion detailed and constructive. There are 3 WE above 85 with grim&fleshrenders and 2 additional ones for double check above 80 that seem to be active according to killboard. All of them are solo roamers 99,9(999)% of their playtime.
So now a question, of course, average regular forum whiner has no knowledge to back up claims, but you definitely can, so - arguebly magus is the toptier solo roamer, correct? Does it have to use regen items to succed? Im sure no. I could look the same way into killboard, but at the moment cba so ill relay on what you may say tho.

You are totally wrong making items the culprit. Its class design, no more no less.

I also like to think that my skill has increased a lot after I changed into dps only specs.

That is absolute truth and can be easily followed watching your awesome clips. You would further increase your skills if you choose more challenging and competetive gameplay. I can get you on a take - dull specs -> dull gameplay -> degradation of player skill, but the solution is to tweak abilities and masteries, not items.

Im not gonna go into details anymore, but i will quote ABSOLUTE BASE which i would sign with blood beside points about nerfing items (as its design trap we currently into in regards to balancing) and here it is:

Spoiler:

I don't really expect the 1v1 balance to happen, but I would love to see the most extreme cases (ie builds with no real counter) tuned down, and i strongly advocate for more active gameplay instead of the passive one that's solo meta atm. 180hp/4s in 4s won't bother me, its the 400-500 hp/4s with full toughness/armor stack and max parry on top of that what bothers me. tuning down grimmshimmer and fleshrenders is in my opinion called for, as they are clearly over performing for the item level. It also might be easier to tune these down rather than the complete regen mechanic (to have heal debuffs affect regen for example)

I did have both magus and engineer in very defensive builds, but I think that only makes my point more valid. I can tell with first-hand experience that gameplay is a lot more interesting with active specs where you don't win by dotting up and face tanking stuff. I have shared the clip where my magus AFK tanks some wh while im alt-tabbed, and also have beaten IB with riposte choppa by using only arrow keys to face the ib as he ran around. (tho this was with the slightly broken riposte period where riposte got dmg increase from rage mechanic). What comes to healing abilities of magus and engineer, they dont bother me too much. Aegis can be shattered, and keg is 2s cast, short range heal that can be heal-debuffed, both have counters.

The MAIN problem with nerfing regen gear is that some classes would benefit from it at the expense of others.

RDPS in particular would become stronger than ever, i.e Shaman / Am / Magus dots etc are very oppressive to melee characters. If this is nerfed, who would benefit? RDPS and healer classes. Stealth classes are less affected since they still maintain the element of surprise.

So you mention an important point, the fact that Magus ( engineer to a lesser extent) felt broken with regen gear, that's because they're ranged. Ranged classes do absolutely not need sustain on top of kite/rdps. However melee - none stealthed none healer characters does need it to stand a chance vs dots. Otherwise you're goin to get a RDPS meta worse than ever before in the small scale roaming. Many will quit.

I agree with you that deftard meta is bad, but i disagree that nerfing regen gear is a good solution. Instead i would propose to restrict regen gear to tank classes, and none stealthed mdps classes. Grimmershimmer could have different stats for ranged, healer, stealth classes.

I dont think fleshrenders have enough regen on them to make any difference, just leave them be. The main thing about fleshrender rings is the 2% armor pen reduction on tank classes, 40 regen isn't too much. Just a little counter vs dots. One could prevent Magus/engineer etc to have access to the regen rings and just the other fleshrender versions without regen.

P.S. I mention this as a general point on regen, since you got people in this thread that whish to see a universal nerf of regen gear, as for Grimmershimmer per se, i don't think nerfing it a little would be a bad thing, e.g 120 regen. Tanks have access to Warlord chest anyway.

So implementation of your proposals will create even more unbalance and your favorite game mode will become even more dull, to a point of being sh*tshow nightmare.

[Nikt]

My 5th cents to discussion as fresh player:
Grimshimmer must stay as it is. Chest and ring give lowbie such me a chace to fight in fights focused on warbands and cooperations. mant times i see how it help healers to keep me alive in Fort ( like yersterday) and give more sustain. If not regen - newbie like me have no right to exists in terms of ROR