So the WH changes seem pretty busted

[M0rw47h]

I love your "lack of build variety" complains. Try any other mDPS, you don't have real choices: often your only choice is, if you play ST or AoE, and thats it. I don't see reason why WH/WE should be any different.

[nat3s]

Play WE then, problem solved.

Its runing away from problem, not solving it.

WE also now picks between speed buff, heal debuff or stun. Running tri spec with all 3 elixirs/relics is workable which seems interesting, but a big trade off for that.

You mention WE has a snare, but so does WH if you're talking about ranged snare. If you mean WE's Sacrificial Stab then yes WE gets an additional snare, but my god, Sacrificial Stab is trying to compete with BAL which does way more damage and can now be crit boosted 25%. I'd much rather have BAL on my WE over Sacrificial Stab!

[Sever1n]

WEs lost snare from pounce?

[Faction69]

I love your "lack of build variety" complains. Try any other mDPS, you don't have real choices: often your only choice is, if you play ST or AoE, and thats it. I don't see reason why WH/WE should be any different.

My problem isn't a lack of build variety, it's that the builds we do have don't really feel very well put together. You spec into the trees to take a few absolutely required abilities/tactics, and the rest is awkward filler.

In terms of the coherence of the viable specs, things were better pre-patch. In terms of power though, not sure yet.

Seal of Destruction needs to be changed though, I hope we can all agree on that. The function of the ability makes no sense. They clearly wanted to decouple sprint from vanish, but they did it in a very nonsensical way, that also made it harder for some specs to access Shroud of Magnus, and made it harder for other specs to access sprint.

Imo swap it back in position with Shroud of Magnus, take sprint off it, and make a 5 second sprint a baseline ability (like what other mdps have). Fixed, easy.

And another thing as was mentioned on previous page: WH and WE need a new second single target spammable ability now that Razor strike is AOE. Armorpen based single target builds are screwed now because the stat is wasted when your main attack just ignores armor anyway, and you are forced into pumping up right tree to buff Torment damage

[Sever1n]

Armorpen based single target builds are screwed now because the stat is wasted when your main attack just ignores armor anyway, and you are forced into pumping up right tree to buff Torment damage

Not entirely true, torment reliable as armor penetration skill only in 2 cases after stun and when using feinted. After that in duel it's just regular skill that very rarely reach back, and it feels that it need to be stiked in perfect 1° from 360°. That why im so mad of suggestion to waste feinted on slowing targets - its one of key instruments of burst. If you lose seal or feinted - u automatically screwed against heavy armored target.

1st tree lost razor, wich combined wiith blesed blade supposed to allow WH to go trough high armored targets. But blessed blade just dont function anymore normally, it last only for 2 gcd while u need 5 tnx to new scaling dmg of finishers mechanic, it dont work on finishers exept trial by pain. And tpb is not popular becouse it highly negated by toughness, and have same sickness as any channel ingame - it breaks at random, atleast it still have range, that why we so unhappy with nerf of brutal.

Im just looking at calculator and see only bal variations that could be effective. We are slaves of 3rd tree. Its just to good not to use, main spamer skill in that tree, stun and best bullets also. If someone see good not BAL build then show me it and explain how it will work.

About seal - wasting it as dash feels same as wasting feinted for slow. It was life saver 50armpen addition for bursting, u dont have it if u want to have healdebuff at all.

Instead of careful fixes of badly working 1st tree and exit wound wh received chaos in trees and BAL adiction. That why im so unhappy with this rework. If choosing between my asw and wh for sweaty figth i dont see reason to pick wh at all.

[gersy]

Armorpen based single target builds are screwed now because the stat is wasted when your main attack just ignores armor anyway, and you are forced into pumping up right tree to buff Torment damage

"1st tree lost razor, wich combined wiith blesed blade supposed to allow WH to go trough high armored targets. But blessed blade just dont function anymore normally, it last only for 2 gcd while u need 5 tnx to new scaling dmg of finishers mechanic, it dont work on finishers exept trial by pain. And tpb is not popular becouse it highly negated by toughness, and have same sickness as any channel ingame - it breaks at random, atleast it still have range, that why we so unhappy with nerf of brutal."

as far as razor strike being useless on ST well it was only useful in the past on ST if you 1. had blessed blade or seal of destruction active and 2. were not behind target and 3. target had specific armor value comparative to your armor pen. otherwise torment was always better to use from behind or with feinted positioning, especially vs medium and heavy armor classes or bis healers with armor talis/zealrp armor tactic, even with few points in right tree.

also what do you mean it doesn't work on finishers besides trial by pain ? it works fine for Abso, DG, BAL, EW. only it doesn't work on should be new burn heretic, since that is spirit damage. common misconception that it didn't work for other finishers, but because they are technically projectile abilities (which move at very high speed) it does work on them since you are getting the buff on yourself immediately while they are still in flight and damage is calculated when they land. at least that's how it was in the past (i tested this extensively multiple times within the last 2 years and always worked fine).

"Im just looking at calculator and see only bal variations that could be effective. We are slaves of 3rd tree. Its just to good not to use, main spamer skill in that tree, stun and best bullets also. If someone see good not BAL build then show me it and explain how it will work."

actually left tree mixed with middle or right is very viable, in some group compositions it might even be the best tree for single target now. exit wounds remains weak unfortunately, however it is not 100% BAL world. you have a few viable builds focusing most points in left tree, as it received some buffs with this patch. can play 13/9/0 with IHD (matchup and team dependent, but vanish is not 100% necessary if you have tank and healer) or 13/0/9 with double KD for extra control or use +2 sov and play 13/0/11 abso spam variant. the new aoe finisher is also doing quite respectable damage in single target and cleave situations due to being spirit damage.

with left tree builds i'm able to achieve 7-8k 3sec and 3-4.5k 1sec burst on medium armor dummy, with BAL tree it's actually a bit less for 3sec and about the same for 1sec - and i use semi-normal rotations to achieve this; no morale bombing, outside buffs (just liniment) or any other weird stuff such as overly stacking multiple layers of dots with tbp which would be unrealistic to do against a player. also the damage with left tree builds is a bit harder for enemy to play around compared to BAL since BAL is extremely choreographed and long duration which makes it easy for good players to tell when you are setting a big burst up.

as always i only talk about the game from organized party play perspective (6-12 man). because that is what the game (especially stealth characters) are balanced around. so don't take my words here and apply them to solo roaming 1v1 content because it's not the purpose, for that stuff i won't comment.

[Sever1n]

So you doing same as bal spec dmg in dg spec without not maxed torment? With fervor, new dot and seekers? Tell me your rotation and set of tactics i want to test such info on my wh.

[siglade]

Play WE then, problem solved.

Its runing away from problem, not solving it.

WH player saying WE is better after rework.
WE player saying WH is better after rework.

[Ruin]

One complaint about WH i can make at this time, is that it's AoE skills are spread between two masteries, and if the separation is by the type of dmg dealt, then I have to say that the main/benchmark ability/finisher of that mastery is still physical for some reason.

[Dekata]

Play WE then, problem solved.

Its runing away from problem, not solving it.

WE also now picks between speed buff, heal debuff or stun. Running tri spec with all 3 elixirs/relics is workable which seems interesting, but a big trade off for that.

You mention WE has a snare, but so does WH if you're talking about ranged snare. If you mean WE's Sacrificial Stab then yes WE gets an additional snare, but my god, Sacrificial Stab is trying to compete with BAL which does way more damage and can now be crit boosted 25%. I'd much rather have BAL on my WE over Sacrificial Stab!

You right.... 2k on last bal tick against stupid ss finisher with snare and poor damage. Poor poor whs... lol