WElf Nerf

[Ksekwlothreftis]

I think wichelf still needs a little balancing.
I looked at the data for the ability damage formula and compared it to other classes. I would like to draw attention to a few things that are causing the problem.

1. wichbrew
Problem:
Based dmg 280 + 1.5*Damage bonus +1*weapon dmg
The base dmg is huge, considering that it's Corporeal damage, it can't be removed because it's not an enchant or blessing, and neither armor nor toughness have any effect on it. Combined with the Frenzied Mayhem tactic, this increases by another 25%.
For comparison, the
which hunter Burn Away Lies ability base damage 235
is not Corporeal damage, armor affects it, it's a 9-second dot, not a huge burst dmg, an ailment that can be cleansed in theory (as far as I remember, it couldn't be cleansed and it was magic dmg), and on top of that, the target must be facing away from you.
For all these reasons, I think it's obvious that intervention is necessary.
My suggestions:
the base damage should be much lower, half as much, or it should not be corporeal damage
Or there should be a condition that it only works from behind.

2. Kiss of Death
Problem:
180 Corporeal damage, a 25% chance Anytime you hit an enemy
I'm not sure, but as far as I remember, unfortunately, this also works on auto attacks.
We are also talking about Corporeal damage, also base damage. It is not affected by toughness or armor. The whichelf has a weapon with 1.5 autoattack speed, and the Mark of Hellebron tactic is also available
You have been blessed by Hellebron. Your auto attack speed is increased by 50% for 10 seconds after the successful use of any one of your Frenzies. And then there's the auto attack speed increase from items. This is a huge problem because the kiss of death can occur every quarter of a second, which is its internal cooldown. A mercilessly low autoattack continuously procs 180 Corporeal damage, which is unaffected by toughness or armor. On top of that, it heals the whichelf and applies a heal buff.
For comparison, WH Blessed Bullets of Purity Whenever you hit an enemy with your Executions, you deal an additional 375 Spirit damage, which I also consider to be a lot, as neither toughness nor armor can counter it, but it has a 2-second cooldown and requires a minimum of 70 AP. The welf variant is free and triggers continuously with autoattacks.
My suggestion: radically reduce the base damage and/or make it a non-magic attack, scale it with the damage bonus, and set the base damage to 50 base damage.
The internal cooldown of Kiss of Death should not be a quarter of a second, but at least 1 second. It should not be triggered by autoattack. The Mark of Hellebron tactic is also worth considering: Your auto attack speed is increased by 50% for 10 seconds after the successful use of any one of your Frenzies. Let's admit that doing Frenzy is not a big deal, you would do it anyway. In comparison, WH needs to hit crit for this, which is significantly more difficult than a frenzy.
Inquisitor's Fury: Each time you critically hit an enemy, your autoattack speed will be increased by 50% for 10 seconds.
I suggest modifying Mark of Hellebron so that it also activates on crit.

3. Enfeebling Strike
Problem:
Your target will take 168 Corporeal damage every time they move for 15 seconds
The base damage is 168 Corporeal damage. It does not affect armor or toughness. It does not require crit chance or high strength. This is 1740 magic damage. It's not much, but it should be annoying enough. The base damage should be very low, but it should scale with damage bonus, be able to crit, or be magic damage.

In summary:
Overall, the witchelf has access to attacks with very high base damage, complemented by tactics that are also very easy to access, with terrifying synergy. What's more, everything I've mentioned here is on one branch, so you don't even have to choose, you get it all from one branch. Besides, you don't have to worry about defensive regeneration with the offensive main stat, because the base damage is already huge (average stability costs 100-150 base damage in AP and physical damage against armor, welf 180 magic damage proccs every quarter second for free, which heals him and heals his enemy).
This has been a major problem for years. I hoped that the melee DPS balance patch would fix it, but I don't think it did.
The basic principle should be that those who use regeneration, defense, armor and toughness talismans, regeneration jewelry and chests, do not invest in crit chance, do not invest in the main stat, should not be able to produce high damage.
And yes, Kiss of Death is huge, 180 magic damage for free, every quarter of a second, which heals him and heals you, and neither armor nor toughness can counter it.
Witchbrew, which is 420*6 = 2520 in 3 seconds minimum, which neither armor nor toughness can counter, you only get a small reduction in resist. You get this fdmaget with 0 str and zero crit chance, which is all a wichelf can do. I think this is absurd.
And it's irrelevant that it's not a solo game. That's exactly why it's incomprehensible why there is such an overpowered solo spec. You have to catch up with the WB party, and even those who don't play solo or in small groups, healers, and tanks have surely encountered this problem. There is a class that has everything, so you don't have to make any decisions, just put out more rgen or armor or toughness, because you get dmget for free and a significant part of self-heal as well.

Those who dont invest in offensive stats shouldnt be able to do dmg, they should be only debuffer/buffer.

This whole post is stinks Ignoramus but whatever .

Skipping the first point, im not remotely dealing with this blatant misinformation and misunderstanding. I just hope you do not purposefully say it and are just confused.

As for the second point, in order for WE to make the most out of the 25% proc, she needs to run BB weapons with lower Wdps and fast atk speed. The healing part comes from a tactic and not from the Kiss of Death (funny that u quote only that, when every kiss does the same dmg xD). Mark of hellebron is inferior to Inquisitor's Fury, way easier to crit for both classes than using finishers to trigger the buff. Now the elephant in the room is your false assumption that 25% proc = 100% proc every 0.25 seconds. Either u dont understand how the game works, or are bad at mathematics.

As for the third point, WH has the exact same equivalent, inferior opener for both classes after the patch. Just shows u dont understand both classes and the game in general.

As for my summary, I can only speculate u didnt even bother to check anything in "Dalen Ability Viewer", such as the left side of the screen that u can input values for strength or wdps etc. As for the "ignoring toughness" part u quoted 10 times, every ability scaling with strength, ballistic skill and intelligence gets reduced scaling by an amount equal to toughness in 1:1 ratio.

I would call for someone to close the thread, we dont need this misinformation and misunderstanding flowing.

[SuperStar]

I think wichelf still needs a little balancing.
I looked at the data for the ability damage formula and compared it to other classes. I would like to draw attention to a few things that are causing the problem.

1. wichbrew
Problem:
Based dmg 280 + 1.5*Damage bonus +1*weapon dmg
The base dmg is huge, considering that it's Corporeal damage, it can't be removed because it's not an enchant or blessing, and neither armor nor toughness have any effect on it. Combined with the Frenzied Mayhem tactic, this increases by another 25%.
For comparison, the
which hunter Burn Away Lies ability base damage 235
is not Corporeal damage, armor affects it, it's a 9-second dot, not a huge burst dmg, an ailment that can be cleansed in theory (as far as I remember, it couldn't be cleansed and it was magic dmg), and on top of that, the target must be facing away from you.
For all these reasons, I think it's obvious that intervention is necessary.
My suggestions:
the base damage should be much lower, half as much, or it should not be corporeal damage
Or there should be a condition that it only works from behind.

2. Kiss of Death
Problem:
180 Corporeal damage, a 25% chance Anytime you hit an enemy
I'm not sure, but as far as I remember, unfortunately, this also works on auto attacks.
We are also talking about Corporeal damage, also base damage. It is not affected by toughness or armor. The whichelf has a weapon with 1.5 autoattack speed, and the Mark of Hellebron tactic is also available
You have been blessed by Hellebron. Your auto attack speed is increased by 50% for 10 seconds after the successful use of any one of your Frenzies. And then there's the auto attack speed increase from items. This is a huge problem because the kiss of death can occur every quarter of a second, which is its internal cooldown. A mercilessly low autoattack continuously procs 180 Corporeal damage, which is unaffected by toughness or armor. On top of that, it heals the whichelf and applies a heal buff.
For comparison, WH Blessed Bullets of Purity Whenever you hit an enemy with your Executions, you deal an additional 375 Spirit damage, which I also consider to be a lot, as neither toughness nor armor can counter it, but it has a 2-second cooldown and requires a minimum of 70 AP. The welf variant is free and triggers continuously with autoattacks.
My suggestion: radically reduce the base damage and/or make it a non-magic attack, scale it with the damage bonus, and set the base damage to 50 base damage.
The internal cooldown of Kiss of Death should not be a quarter of a second, but at least 1 second. It should not be triggered by autoattack. The Mark of Hellebron tactic is also worth considering: Your auto attack speed is increased by 50% for 10 seconds after the successful use of any one of your Frenzies. Let's admit that doing Frenzy is not a big deal, you would do it anyway. In comparison, WH needs to hit crit for this, which is significantly more difficult than a frenzy.
Inquisitor's Fury: Each time you critically hit an enemy, your autoattack speed will be increased by 50% for 10 seconds.
I suggest modifying Mark of Hellebron so that it also activates on crit.

3. Enfeebling Strike
Problem:
Your target will take 168 Corporeal damage every time they move for 15 seconds
The base damage is 168 Corporeal damage. It does not affect armor or toughness. It does not require crit chance or high strength. This is 1740 magic damage. It's not much, but it should be annoying enough. The base damage should be very low, but it should scale with damage bonus, be able to crit, or be magic damage.

In summary:
Overall, the witchelf has access to attacks with very high base damage, complemented by tactics that are also very easy to access, with terrifying synergy. What's more, everything I've mentioned here is on one branch, so you don't even have to choose, you get it all from one branch. Besides, you don't have to worry about defensive regeneration with the offensive main stat, because the base damage is already huge (average stability costs 100-150 base damage in AP and physical damage against armor, welf 180 magic damage proccs every quarter second for free, which heals him and heals his enemy).
This has been a major problem for years. I hoped that the melee DPS balance patch would fix it, but I don't think it did.
The basic principle should be that those who use regeneration, defense, armor and toughness talismans, regeneration jewelry and chests, do not invest in crit chance, do not invest in the main stat, should not be able to produce high damage.
And yes, Kiss of Death is huge, 180 magic damage for free, every quarter of a second, which heals him and heals you, and neither armor nor toughness can counter it.
Witchbrew, which is 420*6 = 2520 in 3 seconds minimum, which neither armor nor toughness can counter, you only get a small reduction in resist. You get this fdmaget with 0 str and zero crit chance, which is all a wichelf can do. I think this is absurd.
And it's irrelevant that it's not a solo game. That's exactly why it's incomprehensible why there is such an overpowered solo spec. You have to catch up with the WB party, and even those who don't play solo or in small groups, healers, and tanks have surely encountered this problem. There is a class that has everything, so you don't have to make any decisions, just put out more rgen or armor or toughness, because you get dmget for free and a significant part of self-heal as well.

Those who dont invest in offensive stats shouldnt be able to do dmg, they should be only debuffer/buffer.

This whole post is stinks Ignoramus but whatever .

Skipping the first point, im not remotely dealing with this blatant misinformation and misunderstanding. I just hope you do not purposefully say it and are just confused.

As for the second point, in order for WE to make the most out of the 25% proc, she needs to run BB weapons with lower Wdps and fast atk speed. The healing part comes from a tactic and not from the Kiss of Death (funny that u quote only that, when every kiss does the same dmg xD). Mark of hellebron is inferior to Inquisitor's Fury, way easier to crit for both classes than using finishers to trigger the buff. Now the elephant in the room is your false assumption that 25% proc = 100% proc every 0.25 seconds. Either u dont understand how the game works, or are bad at mathematics.

As for the third point, WH has the exact same equivalent, inferior opener for both classes after the patch. Just shows u dont understand both classes and the game in general.

As for my summary, I can only speculate u didnt even bother to check anything in "Dalen Ability Viewer", such as the left side of the screen that u can input values for strength or wdps etc. As for the "ignoring toughness" part u quoted 10 times, every ability scaling with strength, ballistic skill and intelligence gets reduced scaling by an amount equal to toughness in 1:1 ratio.

I would call for someone to close the thread, we dont need this misinformation and misunderstanding flowing.

Unfortunately, you are being very personal, operating without arguments and with incomplete or incorrect information.

I summarized the main points at the end of my post so that no one would get lost in the data.

I will repeat it for you, because I suspect it escaped your attention.

These abilities have very high base damage.

Toughness only reduces the damage bonus part of the damage formula.

Toughness is useless against absurdly high base damage, it's worthless. Since it's magic damage, armor is useless against them too.

This has been a huge problem for years.
No risk, high reward gameplay. You don't have to do anything to offensive stats, and you still have a fixed 2500 burst and a constant 180 magic damage proc, which heals, and with 1.5 weapon damage tactics and items, imagine how often it can proc, which also heals and doesn't cost AP, and toughness doesn't work against it either. I'm happy to talk to anyone about this topic, but it would be helpful if you didn't know something, you would at least read the post you're commenting on.

[Krima]

Another day I open "WElf Nerf"

Content: "Inquisitor's Fury: Each time you critically hit an enemy, your autoattack speed will be increased by 50% for 10 seconds.
I suggest modifying Mark of Hellebron so that it also activates on crit"



Sure Ill take that.

[SuperStar]

Another day I open "WElf Nerf"

Content: "Inquisitor's Fury: Each time you critically hit an enemy, your autoattack speed will be increased by 50% for 10 seconds.
I suggest modifying Mark of Hellebron so that it also activates on crit"



Sure Ill take that.

Good very good Anakrima!

High risk high reward this is the way!

[Alubert]

I wouldn't touch WE dmg anymore.
In my opinion, WE would be well balanced if the following were removed:
Pounce
Sacrifices Rewarded tactic

After such a change, I would consider the mdps patch a success, just like the healers and tanks patch.

[Nelly74]

Without necessarily agreeing with everything being said, I’d argue that if a Witch Elf goes down the defensive path, her DPS should naturally drop as a trade-off. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
The DPS path feels mostly fine overall, even if the leap is clearly over the top. If you’re really that attached to keeping a leap in the game, give it to the Slayer at least , that would actually make sense. And while you’re at it, maybe remove that completely absurd and unjustified armor debuff.
Long story short: yes, the defensive WE needs to be reworked. That’s just basic common sense

[Alubert]

I think wichelf still needs a little balancing.
I looked at the data for the ability damage formula and compared it to other classes. I would like to draw attention to a few things that are causing the problem.

1. wichbrew
Problem:
Based dmg 280 + 1.5*Damage bonus +1*weapon dmg
The base dmg is huge, considering that it's Corporeal damage, it can't be removed because it's not an enchant or blessing, and neither armor nor toughness have any effect on it. Combined with the Frenzied Mayhem tactic, this increases by another 25%.
For comparison, the
which hunter Burn Away Lies ability base damage 235
is not Corporeal damage, armor affects it, it's a 9-second dot, not a huge burst dmg, an ailment that can be cleansed in theory (as far as I remember, it couldn't be cleansed and it was magic dmg), and on top of that, the target must be facing away from you.
For all these reasons, I think it's obvious that intervention is necessary.
My suggestions:
the base damage should be much lower, half as much, or it should not be corporeal damage
Or there should be a condition that it only works from behind.

Yeah, everyone who is saying 'bal is not a huge burst' is trolling or isn't playing the game.

You have 5 post on forum so based on this you dont play much. But idk.

If you wanna do big dmg with bal you have to put on offensive stat strenght and crit chamce and crit dmg. And its still go aganist armor aganist toughness and it can be cleansed and the enemy can prepare it because is 9sec.

The welf do this 2520 dmg with zero i repeat 0 str 0 crit chance this is why its absurd.

No risk but hight reward/gift for nothing

Wasn't it you who wrote that Touch of Palsy should be reduced? It deals flaff damage and has a long cooldown, while WH BAL deals lethal damage with a short cooldown. Here, because it suits your argument, you argue that BAL can be cleansed . But not Chosen ToP?

[Gunlinger]

I wouldn't touch WE dmg anymore.
In my opinion, WE would be well balanced if the following were removed:
Pounce
Sacrifices Rewarded tactic

After such a change, I would consider the mdps patch a success, just like the healers and tanks patch.

Then there would still be something that for me still haunts me since the Melee patch regarding WE and WH balance.
(The part of the WH regarding that thing got fixed after i reported the Bug, but the more important thing was not even addressed at all anywhere)


WH change
- Unyielding Conviction - New tactic at 7 points in Path of Judgement: Silence The Heretic no longer requires you to be behind the target to deal damage and it builds an additional Accusation.

WE change
- Rite of Unmaking - New tactic at 7 pt in Path of Treachery: Sever Blessing builds another Blood Lust and deals 25% more damage if you are behind the target.


The tactics sit on both classes at the exact same spot. They both grant the exact same opportunity to create 2 career point with the use of only 1 ability.


One of the 2 classes gets it to work with sever blessing, that comes in handy at almost EVERY fight where the target has a blessing. AND that has only 5 sec cooldown. + the tactic grants 25% more dmg to it.

The other class gets it to work with a silence, that only comes in handy against casters AND grants immunity against the classes own Knockdown Ability for example. And it has 20 sec cooldown.

AND I WONDER WHY! Why was the decision made, to not give BOTH classes the SAME Tactic? On paper you could build an ultra strong attack combo with Silence the heretic building 2 instead of 1 point. In reality, the Cost of a tactic slot ONLY granting another point while giving out free immunity and blocking Pistol whip, is straight out laughable.
It should either be the WE tactic for BOTH WE and WH or add to the WH one that silence the heretic 4 sec Silence ability no longer gives immunity against Pistol whip and Confess!.

[nocturnalguest]

omfg now these people who dont play classes they complain about make BALANCE suggestions based on Dalen ability viewer ie not actually from gameplay just from looking at specs etc... And you dont realize that it would be a buff if WE got 50% AA haste from Crit. And 4 tactics of Welf - Masterful Treachery, Tob, Flanking, Frenzied mayhem NONE of them increase dmg of Witchbrew atm, they all should though.

Then you compare things that have no relation to eachother, just picking random skill from random class to try to make NERFING suggestions. Witchbrew,Riposte,Leonine Frenzy should all do crit dmg like it worked for 15 yrs. 250ms for ALL PROCS is the standard, but for WELF they shouldnt proc from Auto attacks right? Then change ALL dmg procs to work like that.

That someone even suggests these things is just depressing to me. EDIT; You claim things like its 70 ap when WH uses Finisher : D I have no clue where you could even get to this number, but Bullets only take 20 Ap when you activate them... Not when you use Finisher. Great learning youve done on your journey to to rr 70!

Witch Hunter has EXACT same thing as feebling strike, but only welf version needs to be removed right? Come on...

Hey mate, its pretty surprising to see you surprised
Aint forums doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing?

Thank gods that nobody is looking here so all those threads with clueless folks posting clueless things are absolutely worthless and meaningless, so the only real purpose to post is to keep some info for rare newcomers or just troll.

I cant imagine a worse nightmare then all the solo enjoyers, twitch warriors or regular forum dwellers "feedback" would be anyhow considered. So just chill, have fun and "see i can sh**post too" (c)

[Krima]

Another day I open "WElf Nerf"

Content: "Inquisitor's Fury: Each time you critically hit an enemy, your autoattack speed will be increased by 50% for 10 seconds.
I suggest modifying Mark of Hellebron so that it also activates on crit"



Sure Ill take that.

Good very good Anakrima!

High risk high reward this is the way!

I don’t mind, CRIT is actually the only real way to burst and deal DPS. I understand you guys are trying to tone down "DEF WE", and I’m fine with that as long as our DPS numbers remain untouched. Remove Kiss and Bullet heal tactic from the game. Case closed.