[WE/WH] shadow

[nat3s]

That's a lot of typos.

Yes I know about damage formulas, the higher base damage for Witchbrew and Kiss is intended because they cannot crit. Witchbrew hits for around 240 as a def WE, significantly lower than an AM, RP, Engi dot tick. The strength of def WE simply isn't its damage.

I think you guys are talking about completly different builds.
If you play WE and your witchbrew is hitting for 240 then no wonder you keep defending this class. Using your rhetoric one could say 'l2p'.

WE can build high amount of strength/meele power, while still keeping tankiness on crazy levels. Any decent WE's Witchbrew is hitting for around 450-550 after mitigation (without res buffs and debuffs), some are pushing this higher for hits around 600, that's 2.5k-3k corp damage loaded behind one skill. And u can reach this numbers while mixing defensive sets, slotting armor talis etc. And i can't but laugh, when u keep saying about low damage and no burst. Learn to timestamp your witchbrews. You can burn all stacks in a matter of mere seconds, with 1.5k wounds debuff at your disposal. If u combine this with pretty much every meaningfull stat debuff a class can get, good sustained damage and burst potential every 10sec on witchbrew, crazy mobility, overtuned absorb tactic, you get a monster solo class. The only balanced thing right now about WE are players dragging it down XD

You can reach higher numbers with Frenzied Mayhem, but no def WE is running capped strength. No def WE is hitting 600 WR procs.

I play a def WE with 800 str: https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 704/armory. The typical build runs 913 or 941 str. Def sov + Vic doesn't get you any higher unless you sacrifice defenses significantly, at which point you're not really a def WE anymore and will be squishy.

Happy to post the 5 common flavours of def WE build via RoR planner (Killboard is down currently else I'd do it now) which is what Witchrage, Destiny, Solater, myself and others run.

Yes you can spend a 1 point RA to consume WR stacks, are you going to keep pointing out the obvious like you're somehow educating def WE vets?

I'm really sorry to sound pompous here, but you do not know def WE like I do. I was part of the early days when the Russians theory crafted it out back in 2019 (Hyguckma, Witchrage and co).

[PROsiak]

You can reach higher numbers with Frenzied Mayhem, but no def WE is running capped strength. No def WE is hitting 600 WR procs.

I play a def WE with 800 str: https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 704/armory. The typical build runs 913 or 941 str. Def sov + Vic doesn't get you any higher unless you sacrifice defenses significantly, at which point you're not really a def WE anymore and will be squishy.

Happy to post the 5 common flavours of def WE build via RoR planner (Killboard is down currently else I'd do it now) which is what Witchrage, Destiny, Solater, myself and others run.

Yes you can spend a 1 point RA to consume WR stacks, are you going to keep pointing out the obvious like you're somehow educating def WE vets?

I'm really sorry to sound pompous here, but you do not know def WE like I do. I was part of the early days when the Russians theory crafted it out back in 2019 (Hyguckma, Witchrage and co).

I'm not trying to get into the argument who knows the class better. I'm not even interested in playing this class and i do not care even if u played this class since the days of live servers. This is not relevant to the discussion.

First of all, are u telling me that a typical WE build with 913 or 941 str, not counting any meele power, is hitting 240 Witchbrew ticks? Cause looking at the ability viewer, that should be around 600-620 damage before mitigation or 400-450 after. That's almost double the value you previously mentioned and i'm not even talking about any tactics or damage increase sources, cause i do not have the knowledge at hand which of them, if any, works with this skill. But you mentioned that it works with Frenzied Mayhem, so feel free to add another 20-25% damage on top.

Second, what do u consider a def build? Does any build that deals meaningful amount of damage is not a def build anymore in your eyes? Cause even in the more offensive oriented setups, you can still reach good amount of regen thanks to kisses, rings, pocket, warlord chest etc. The fact that you only need str as your offensive stats means you can reach reasonable amout of mitigation in forms of toughness/armour and avoidance. And the cherry on top which is 600 absorb that easly adds thousands effective hitpoins during the course of the fight. And all of that on a stealth, jump in/jump out class.

Lastly, i did not mention RA at any point. I've never seen any WE use it against me for consuming Witchbrews. This ability could not be existing and it would not change a thing, so why are u bringing this up?

[F4llen4ngel]

my WE 197 dmg bonus/ 985 str, without frienzied mayhem:
training construct: witchbrew: 322, 188 mitigated
target dummy: witchbrew: 510

with frienzied mayhem
training construct: 402
dummy: 637

In real fights i rarely see more than 250-350/ tick average. For 13 point finisher, i dont think its too many or too low eighter
with fast 1.5 weapon, 50% AA haste and 1006 str (201 dmg bonus) values are:
training construct: 408, 6 tick was unloaded in 4 seconds
dummy: 645, unloaded in 3 seconds

on construct highest 3sec burst 4895 1 sec burst: 2451

with def sov, half naked, still 806 str, on construct 354 witchbrew ticks unloaded in 3 sec, bursts are 3.8k and 2k.
with 646 str, really low, 129 dmg bonus: WB ticks: 348, bursts: 3.4k 3s, and 1.4k 1 sec.

naked, 1 weapon, 226 str, 45 dmg bonus: 235 WB ticks, 183 kiss of death ticks, 101 wracking pains ticks, EB 73 ticks, all corporeal, 3s burst: 2283, 1s 1309

So basicaly it doesnt really matter that much if you have 1k str or almost 0 unfortunately, whatever the nerf on it was applied.

235 naked, 408 almost bis stasts. I havent used pots, so it can be a lil bit different, but the range is around those numbers.

[PROsiak]

my WE 197 dmg bonus/ 985 str, without frienzied mayhem:
training construct: witchbrew: 322, 188 mitigated
target dummy: witchbrew: 510

with frienzied mayhem
training construct: 402
dummy: 637

In real fights i rarely see more than 250-350/ tick average. For 13 point finisher, i dont think its too many or too low eighter
with fast 1.5 weapon, 50% AA haste and 1006 str (201 dmg bonus) values are:
training construct: 408, 6 tick was unloaded in 4 seconds
dummy: 645, unloaded in 3 seconds

on construct highest 3sec burst 4895 1 sec burst: 2451

with def sov, half naked, still 806 str, on construct 354 witchbrew ticks unloaded in 3 sec, bursts are 3.8k and 2k.
with 646 str, really low, 129 dmg bonus: WB ticks: 348, bursts: 3.4k 3s, and 1.4k 1 sec.

naked, 1 weapon, 226 str, 45 dmg bonus: 235 WB ticks, 183 kiss of death ticks, 101 wracking pains ticks, EB 73 ticks, all corporeal, 3s burst: 2283, 1s 1309

So basicaly it doesnt really matter that much if you have 1k str or almost 0 unfortunately, whatever the nerf on it was applied.

235 naked, 408 almost bis stasts. I havent used pots, so it can be a lil bit different, but the range is around those numbers.

So you got results, that you can get almost double the damage on single Witchbrew tick from investing in strength and you concluded, that it doesn't matter if u have 1k str or 0? Where's the logic in that?

Anyway, my point isn't really the damage being too high or too low. My point is THERE IS meaningfull damage potential, which people here are claiming that there is not and that def WE is doomed for minutes long fights. I'm pretty sure these skilled WE players someone mentioned before figured out the sweetspots for scaling the damage and building defences, but i've seen hits with Witchbrew on me for 550-570 after mit (so in my case around 780 before, no WC cheese). And it's still with armor/toughness talis focused builds.

That being said, if i were to approach making some balance changes, i wouldn't mess with the damage of this skill, might as well be fine as it is. There are more pendings issues either with this skill or with WE overall. How about we start with stopping the cooldown of this skill ticking while it is active, so no double Witchbrew potential? How about lowering the duration from 1min to idk. 10-15 seconds? How about raising the absorb tactic from 3s per proc to 5 sec? And what is going on with that Pounce anyway or 100% armor ignore SS ... These are the types of changes the class desperately needs, but god forbid anyone raises their concers about this or that and elite players gather like flies to throw 'l2p's', 'no problem with stealth cause it's a team game, so only 100vs100 balance disscussions are meaningfull', 'no problem with bikini class being stealthy, deadly and tanky as a rock' or whatever else...

[Krima]

my WE 197 dmg bonus/ 985 str, without frienzied mayhem:
training construct: witchbrew: 322, 188 mitigated
target dummy: witchbrew: 510

with frienzied mayhem
training construct: 402
dummy: 637

In real fights i rarely see more than 250-350/ tick average. For 13 point finisher, i dont think its too many or too low eighter
with fast 1.5 weapon, 50% AA haste and 1006 str (201 dmg bonus) values are:
training construct: 408, 6 tick was unloaded in 4 seconds
dummy: 645, unloaded in 3 seconds

on construct highest 3sec burst 4895 1 sec burst: 2451

with def sov, half naked, still 806 str, on construct 354 witchbrew ticks unloaded in 3 sec, bursts are 3.8k and 2k.
with 646 str, really low, 129 dmg bonus: WB ticks: 348, bursts: 3.4k 3s, and 1.4k 1 sec.

naked, 1 weapon, 226 str, 45 dmg bonus: 235 WB ticks, 183 kiss of death ticks, 101 wracking pains ticks, EB 73 ticks, all corporeal, 3s burst: 2283, 1s 1309

So basicaly it doesnt really matter that much if you have 1k str or almost 0 unfortunately, whatever the nerf on it was applied.

235 naked, 408 almost bis stasts. I havent used pots, so it can be a lil bit different, but the range is around those numbers.

So you got results, that you can get almost double the damage on single Witchbrew tick from investing in strength and you concluded, that it doesn't matter if u have 1k str or 0? Where's the logic in that?

Anyway, my point isn't really the damage being too high or too low. My point is THERE IS meaningfull damage potential, which people here are claiming that there is not and that def WE is doomed for minutes long fights. I'm pretty sure these skilled WE players someone mentioned before figured out the sweetspots for scaling the damage and building defences, but i've seen hits with Witchbrew on me for 550-570 after mit (so in my case around 780 before, no WC cheese). And it's still with armor/toughness talis focused builds.

That being said, if i were to approach making some balance changes, i wouldn't mess with the damage of this skill, might as well be fine as it is. There are more pendings issues either with this skill or with WE overall. How about we start with stopping the cooldown of this skill ticking while it is active, so no double Witchbrew potential? How about lowering the duration from 1min to idk. 10-15 seconds? How about raising the absorb tactic from 3s per proc to 5 sec? And what is going on with that Pounce anyway or 100% armor ignore SS ... These are the types of changes the class desperately needs, but god forbid anyone raises their concers about this or that and elite players gather like flies to throw 'l2p's', 'no problem with stealth cause it's a team game, so only 100vs100 balance disscussions are meaningfull', 'no problem with bikini class being stealthy, deadly and tanky as a rock' or whatever else...

Do you have actual proof of those 550–570 numbers? I’m running a full glass cannon build and I haven’t seen numbers like that, my friend.
Also, Frenzied Mayhem isn’t even a good tactic. Outside of boosting your Witchbrew numbers, it’s basically a dead tactic for auto-attacks, abilities, and everything else.

There’s no point in touching that skill, otherwise you’re changing the balance of it for the DPS spec and for group fights. GO play versus the best order comps and you feel WE its just average, we need those high dps numbers in order to kill something.

[eigner93]

I feel like this topic is getting derailed again by biased WEs and WE victims. But this would be a good change. Or buff ini on lower numbers(if its not a myth). Or reduce stealth time drastically. Its stupid that sometimes these WE/WH wbs form and 10 stealthers are dancing around you in stealth making rock paper scissors which 3 will jump and oneshot you without you ever detecting any of them for even half a second. Broken system. Should be revised after the buffs and rise of stealther numbers. I just wish there was some kind of communication from the devs. Clearly there is a problem if every 2nd post is about stealthers since the change and huge rise of stealthers numbers.

[PROsiak]

Do you have actual proof of those 550–570 numbers? I’m running a full glass cannon build and I haven’t seen numbers like that, my friend.
Also, Frenzied Mayhem isn’t even a good tactic. Outside of boosting your Witchbrew numbers, it’s basically a dead tactic for auto-attacks, abilities, and everything else.

There’s no point in touching that skill, otherwise you’re changing the balance of it for the DPS spec and for group fights. GO play versus the best order comps and you feel WE its just average, we need those high dps numbers in order to kill something.

I don't like calling names, but since the player was mentioned before here's few examples from my fights vs Solater. I believe he's running more offensively oriented spec, with 5p warlord for additional meele power. If he were to exchange talis from armor to strength he could probably reach higher numbers.



I'm not against having high DPS numbers, but be a DPS character then, not a stealthy tanky bruiser with access to 2x 3k corp damage burst skill.

[Narfii]

Do you have actual proof of those 550–570 numbers? I’m running a full glass cannon build and I haven’t seen numbers like that, my friend.
Also, Frenzied Mayhem isn’t even a good tactic. Outside of boosting your Witchbrew numbers, it’s basically a dead tactic for auto-attacks, abilities, and everything else.

There’s no point in touching that skill, otherwise you’re changing the balance of it for the DPS spec and for group fights. GO play versus the best order comps and you feel WE its just average, we need those high dps numbers in order to kill something.

I don't like calling names, but since the player was mentioned before here's few examples from my fights vs Solater. I believe he's running more offensively oriented spec, with 5p warlord for additional meele power. If he were to exchange talis from armor to strength he could probably reach higher numbers.



I'm not against having high DPS numbers, but be a DPS character then, not a stealthy tanky bruiser with access to 2x 3k corp damage burst skill.

Worth noting since it's in context that Solater is on frenzied mayhem and does NOT run kiss of doom. As well, melee power on his jewel talis. He's not as tanky as he would otherwise be, has essentially no regen, and his wb is inflated slightly from frenzied mayhem. A more tanky build would have lower witchbrew numbers.

You don't run wb in the traditional offensive build because it's back-loaded and is slow without 1.5 weapons/mark.

[PROsiak]

Worth noting since it's in context that Solater is on frenzied mayhem and does NOT run kiss of doom. As well, melee power on his jewel talis. He's not as tanky as he would otherwise be, has essentially no regen, and his wb is inflated slightly from frenzied mayhem. A more tanky build would have lower witchbrew numbers.

You don't run wb in the traditional offensive build because it's back-loaded and is slow without 1.5 weapons/mark.

Sure, but that has nothing to do with points that i made. The options are clearly on the table, you can build more offensively and push the WB damage higher, or you could drop this numbers to 400 dmg per tick (look how far we've come from 200-250dmg) and get more regen or defenses.

On offensive build i agree, there's no point in running WB when u have SS (maybe who knows, some 13/13 builds emerge with +2 sov, but im not a WE theorycrafter, so dont ask me) , but we're not talking about that. I don't exactly think WE was in need of 3k+ dmg on a crit finisher (i swear next time i get 3.6k crits i gonna make a screen) that has a 100% armor ignore on top, but that would be discussion for another topic.

[Delirio]

ini is the key since the beginning !!! cheers!!

don ruin this magnificent game pls ..