Role of 2H SM: Backlines Bodyguard

[Coryphaus]

Who is this "we" you speak of? The whole post is about a lone 2H-tank protecting the backline from 1-2 MDPS who storm in, detaunt, and :|...not the giant 6-man murderball. Not a big deal in T2, but it will get worse in T3/T4 with WH/WE finally hitting puberty, and WLs getting Pounce.

This is not AoR most of us here are veterans, most of us here roll in guilds and 6 mans you shouldnt make game play decisions/theory craft based on pubs and low level play...ever

I really hate the current meta

yes i to hate the multiple ordo healers with no hdebuffs walking off all dmg and never punished for being out of position while rdps like sh engie and sw are the kings of orvr

honorable mention to slayers and wls

: ^ )

[Doodoopeepee]

He means you should never theorycraft around low level play, it is a waste of time. For SM you should probably be building around the fact you will be fighting against the meta destro 6 man of DoK/Zealot/Mara/Choppa/Chosen/BG.

I really hate the current meta, it is basically built around the fact that if you lose a 1 healer... you lose the fight. If you lose a dps... you are probably going to lose, unless one of your 2 healers can get a res off and protect everyone while the res sickness is wearing off. A single healer will never get a res off on the other one against a competent team, meaning it is almost always a loss if you are the 1st to lose your healer.

Which is why comps are built around doing as much single target DPS as possible. Having a 2h SM in your 6 man means he will probably die 1st, then you are down a guard and at a gigantic disadvantage.

It's probably less dramatic in a 12v12 environment like SC's, losing 1 DPS probably isn't a huge deal. But losing a healer still will probably spell doom if both 6 mans in the SC are premades.

edit - weird spaces IDK why

Again, not talking about a 2H SM being included in the 6-man murderball. The current meta setup for them works really well, and 2H tanks do not belong in them.

I propose they fulfill a role in the second group in an SC to protect all the random squishies who joined that aren't in a premade. Sorry if that wasn't very clear, my posts tend to ramble.

[Doodoopeepee]

I've played a shitload of SCs and I can tell you in every single one you have MDPS storming the backline. Veterans or not.

Sure, at the 1% highest possible level of play with 4 6-mans going at it, 2H Tanks don't have a role. But for the rest of the players, I think it could be a fun approach.

EDIT - Also, with enough balance changes maybe we could see this new role being developed? Change the meta and whatnot?

[Coryphaus]

I've played a shitload of SCs and I can tell you in every single one you have MDPS storming the backline. Veterans or not.


EDIT - Also, with enough balance changes maybe we could see this new role being developed? Change the meta and whatnot?

Thats because at 20 most tanks dont have their good cc tools yet like stagger, KD's, AoE snares, roots etc

Furthermore going off class tank means you give up ALOT of strong shield based abilities and effectiveness like 5 sec kd on BG, mixed defenses and more importantly destined for victory on chosen, once implemented 1.49 blorcs can grp buff armor with tuffer n nails that requires shield

What you give up is not worth what you get when you go 2h

[Doodoopeepee]

I've played a shitload of SCs and I can tell you in every single one you have MDPS storming the backline. Veterans or not.


EDIT - Also, with enough balance changes maybe we could see this new role being developed? Change the meta and whatnot?

Thats because at 20 most tanks dont have their good cc tools yet like stagger, KD's, AoE snares, roots etc

Furthermore going off class tank means you give up ALOT of strong shield based abilities and effectiveness like 5 sec kd on BG, mixed defenses and more importantly destined for victory on chosen, once implemented 1.49 blorcs can grp buff armor with tuffer n nails that requires shield

What you give up is not worth what you get when you go 2h

Very true for those classes...but for SM? They lose...an interrupt/self armor buff (Crushing Advance), and defensive Morales. None of those fit into the idea of this role. SM is such a strange class lol.

[skutrug]

The fundamental issue is that 2Hs are not made as vital to tank DPS as they should be. I believe in the Q&A someone linked with the last Mythic balancer, the issue of 2H-requirement abilities not being considered as being on even footing with MDPS abilities in terms of damage because "taaaaaaank!" was mentioned.

That appears to be the easiest issue to solve, since that can be improved entirely on the server side. Right on the top of my head you could:
1/ Increase the DPS of the tank 2-H weapons straight into the database
2/ Increase the contribution of weapon DPS to ability damage when used 2-H (1.5x, 2x???)
3/ Give some intrinsic armor penetration to 2-H weapons, lower the chance to parry with them (ever tried to parry a blow from a flamberge sword with a little WE Kris...)
All of this seems a lot easier than trying to create a defensive jump ability not recognized by the client...
The main reason for me to play a 2-H swordmaster is that he/she does not gain any fancy ability (KD, bonus to block...) from holding a shield, so you might as well go for the gusto and hope the other side decide to ignore you for a bit.
Beside, all those fancy shield-bearing tanks don't block that well when one stays in their back

[Azarael]

All of this seems a lot easier than trying to create a defensive jump ability not recognized by the client...

Just to address this specifically:

Even if we were to break past the idea that 2H tanks are mandated to be fodder in all serious environments (which I think is horsecrap because the nerf to Guard from not having a shield and the lack of MDPS tools compensates for proper damage gain), the defensive jump was not intended to deal with any problems SM might have with DPS. It was intended to deal with the SM's lack of viability in knockback situations because they lack a proper ST kick. The defensive pounce would allow SM to jump back to their guarded ally if punted.

SM is actually pretty easy to put a defensive pounce on because Aethyric Armor can serve as a base, as it's self-targeted, so I can set it up so that it only fires a defensive pounce if you're within range of the target. BO presents a bigger problem - there's no obvious skill in the masteries to serve as a base for the jump.

To speak more generally: Something radical would have to be done with two-handers in order to deal with their problems. Using parry strikethrough has been proposed already but would merely be a single step, as that would affect all great weapons. The scaling would have to be something multiplicative and general, because simply boosting Weapon DPS does nothing to address the fact that Weapon DPS's contribution to an attack's damage is highly variable, as it's only one factor in determining skill damage.

Intrinsic armor penetration is an interesting idea, though for great weapon users which rely on non-Physical damage, it's effectively no buff.

[Penril]

I have an idea but have no clue if it would be easy to implement.

What if a 2H tank could ignore guarded targets? Example:

A Slayer is being guarded by a KotBS. He gets hit by a Marauder for 500, so he only takes 250 damage and the KotBS gets hit for the other 250.

A 2H Black Orc hits the same Slayer for 400 damage. The Slayer takes full damage, the KotBS receives zero guard damage.

This would make 2H Tanks viable and actually desirable on certain situations. I bet the new status quo would be 1 SnB tank>1 2H tank>2 mDPS>2 healers.

How to implement it? No clue. I guess it could be tied to certain tactics like Guud at Big Choppin!, Great Weapon Mastery, Oppresing Blows, Greataxe Mastery.

[Azarael]

Don't worry about the implementations; I'm more than capable of handling that.

I'm interested to see what people think, though I wonder if an outright ignore of Guard would have MDPS wondering why they exist.

[skutrug]

Intrinsic armor penetration is an interesting idea, though for great weapon users which rely on non-Physical damage, it's effectively no buff.

True that... the swordmaster is mostly spirit damage, that gives him consistency in DPS.
Adding a straight bonus to all outgoing DPS regardless of how they are generated when using a 2-H, maybe proportional to level??