Dps Tanks are too fragile

[Lescargo]

Hello,


I'll try to keep this short to avoid losing people.

Focused Offense Tactics and Bloodlord weapons are far too punishing for what they offer in return.

Here's a comparison of a 2H bis tank (kotbs) with and without them :

https://ibb.co/ZRvJMHjP


So, Gaining 20% ​​damage (5% of which doesn't affect procs) and loosing a huge portion of our defenses, armor, and toughness — it's a trade nobody wants to make because it's so punishing.

In fact, playing Focused Offense Tactics and Bloodlord as a tank is literally becoming as squishy as a true DPS, without even imagining dealing the damage of a true DPS.

Gaining +20% damage on a relatively low DPS build is certainly not worth losing 40% physical damage reduction, 200 toughness, 10% parry/dodge/disrupt, etc.


The solution could be to balance the penalties. FO and Bloodlord have stacking armor penalties, and that's what hurts.

I the case of FO, I think -33% armor for +15% damage is too much nerf; perhaps it should be reduced to -25% or -20% armor.

Or perhaps a huge regeneration (hp/4s) penalty should be added instead (as part of the fight against HP regeneration builds that many people hate to fight).


Or perhaps a debuff like (increases chance to be critical hit) could be added. This could be interesting for building a 2H tank DPS build around initiative that would buff parry and also reduce chance to be crit in the idea of including FO tactic in it.


I also think Bloodlord weapons are too punishing for tanks.


For example, a Witch elf wielding a Bloodlord weapon gets +5% of good damages for -10% of relatively low armor and toughness. The trade is okay.

Bloodlord on a tank it's +5% of bad damage for -10% of significant armor and toughness; the trade is bad.


For example a weapon like Nightless has no penalties, grants a lot of strength and initiative, two procs one 25% chance to get +10% parry/dodge/disrupt, plus an elemental DoT... Who wants to nerf themselves with Bloodlord for a ridiculous +5% damage?

The problem is that a tank who wants to play a DPS-oriented role must first accept losing the advantages of the shield (the %block that disrupts spells). In other words, playing a two-handed tank is already a nerf in itself, without even considering using FO or Bloodlord.


To help tanks become a bit more "DPS-focused" I also thought about a backstab system, for example, gaining 25% damage when attacking from behind.

This could be implemented through a tactic or a weapon that has this effect. Perhaps removing FO and creating backstab's tactic instead.

This would be a way to create tanks that are "a bit more DPS-focused"

And I like this idea because "having to attack from behind" is also a matter of skills and making "boring tank's gameplay" more dynamic.


Cheers.

[krumhur]

I am a bit confused, I can't seem to understand a few points.

Is this post about DPS specced tanks being too squishy in general or about focused offense and bloodlord weapons stacking with each other and being too punishing for tanks, more so than on other classes?
From the content it seems the latter (and it seems a fair remark), from the title the former. The two things are not necessarily linked (probably because FO is not a good tactic), hence why I am asking.

Also, are we talking about pve or rvr? Solo or group play? That's not clear to me either: from some points raised I'd say rvr, and maybe solo roaming specifically since the post refers to regen build being boring to fight against, but then I see also points about bloodlord weapons, which are seldom used in RvR, either in solo builds because they lack important utility (like the run spd proc), or in warband where you have to guard ppl despite the 2h and the defensive proc is so good to give up.

Finally, and consequential to my first point, I don't understand the purpose, or if you prefer the idea/expectancies behind the post: do you think DPS specced tanks should do higher DPS? Perhaps comparable to real DPS classes at least when using focused offense? Or maybe it's ok for them do less damage, regardless of the tactic, but they shouldn't loose so much tankyness when going 2h?

Some points you raise are interesting, but I can't seem to grasp the overall picture.

[nocturnalguest]

Forums never cease to amuse

Great ideas, keep them coming (c)

[Lescargo]

I am a bit confused, I can't seem to understand a few points.

Is this post about DPS specced tanks being too squishy in general or about focused offense and bloodlord weapons stacking with each other and being too punishing for tanks, more so than on other classes?
From the content it seems the latter (and it seems a fair remark), from the title the former. The two things are not necessarily linked (probably because FO is not a good tactic), hence why I am asking.

Also, are we talking about pve or rvr? Solo or group play? That's not clear to me either: from some points raised I'd say rvr, and maybe solo roaming specifically since the post refers to regen build being boring to fight against, but then I see also points about bloodlord weapons, which are seldom used in RvR, either in solo builds because they lack important utility (like the run spd proc), or in warband where you have to guard ppl despite the 2h and the defensive proc is so good to give up.

Finally, and consequential to my first point, I don't understand the purpose, or if you prefer the idea/expectancies behind the post: do you think DPS specced tanks should do higher DPS? Perhaps comparable to real DPS classes at least when using focused offense? Or maybe it's ok for them do less damage, regardless of the tactic, but they shouldn't loose so much tankyness when going 2h?

Some points you raise are interesting, but I can't seem to grasp the overall picture.

Honestly, I don't know if tanks should deal more damage while remaining as fragile as DPS classes, or if tank damage should always be limited.
It's quite complicated to know for sure, as overall balancing is a profession in itself.

As for me, I'm primarily a solo player, and I know perfectly well that playing a FO + Bloodlord set as a solo KotBs with the goal of maximizing DPS is just a very bad idea.

And it's probably a bad idea in a group as well. There are already plenty of WBs who don't want 2H tanks even when they're tank-built, so glass cannons... meh?
What I'm saying applies to KotBs, though; it's probably a bit different for other tanks, like BOs, which seem to have a bit more potential with this kind of build. But anyway, I've run into Daewuur a few times on his BO. He might manage to score some winning duels with that setup, but I've also seen him running a lot around and refusing a lot of duels x)
And I'm not saying that to make fun of him; I think he's very brave to play that kind of build, and he's a good player.

Basically, we can obviously say that FO and Bloodlord can remain builds for PvE, no problem there. In reality, I've also encountered many groups who simply don't want to hear about "tanks being dps" for dungeons.

In short, I don't even know where I'm going with this thread. The devs can just ignore it; I'm doing just fine without FO and Bloodlord. FO is just a dead or meme tactic, and Bloodlord is meh for tanks, at least as far as PvP is concerned, and maybe we can make something more interesting out of them, that's my point.

[Skaav]

I somewhat agree, since the ability rework 2-hand tanks are in general just very squishy aswell as channel DMG being gutted on almost all of them, not quite sure why.

[Aethilmar]

You never slot Focused Offense (and complain about it). That is the point of it and nobody does it except those looking for a YOLO experience.

Also SM is the "dps" tank you are looking for based on your play style suggestions and even then it still isn't an actual DPS and never will be. Knight should never be the top DPS tank (or even close) b/c if they were, in combination with their utility, there is no reason for the other tanks.

Lastly, if you are in a party you shouldn't be dying anyway even with FO b/c a partially awake healer can keep you up. And if you are solo, run auras from Conquest, Vigilance and Glory while also slotting Sun's Blessing which will give you your extra survivability while still retaining some punch.

In summary, its all about tradeoffs. You make it work or you roll an actual dps.

[Lescargo]

if you are solo, run auras from Conquest, Vigilance and Glory while also slotting Sun's Blessing which will give you your extra survivability while still retaining some punch.

In summary, its all about tradeoffs. You make it work or you roll an actual dps.

Wow. thank God you're here to explain things.

I think you've really found the solution to the problem, it's crazy.
I have over 1000 solo kills on my knight and I'd never tried that, really, and what's more, I'd never even thought of it! You must be both a genius and the right person for the job.

More seriously, if your point is that we should continue not using FO and Bloodlord, then you've succeeded.


I explain that the tradeoff isn't worthwhile

the guy says: it's a tradeoff.

[Rydiak]

Well, sounds like the thread has reached its logical conclusion then.