¨Join Solo¨ and ¨Join Group¨

[Zegota]

As far as I'm concerned, 6v6 scs like Eternal Citadel should've been a form of endgame in the old WAR. Mythic wanted to keep it as much casual as possible, so they didn't allow the sc to be available all the time, even though that there were many groups around that insisted on the 6men composition.
Other scs that could be played in this format are Caledor Woods, Maw of Madness and Gates of Ekrund. There shouldn't even be some special mechanic to them, except holding a flag. Each sc brings a potential for different tactical approach (if you have rdps in group, you could queue for Caledor only, etc).
And as Jaycub said, perfect group combos would surface (like we don't know them already). It would be a perfect ground for acknowledging and fixing balancing issues. And if the tides turn to some other classes than the current most popular ones, people will go with it and it'll keep the game fresh.

And I wrote this as solo player, I would be one of the people that has to adapt to the group play.

Pug scs would still be pug scs. I don't think that anyone had issues with the randomness of it, only when that randomness gets broken by premades. And I love it when there's a premade on other side, makes the game more challenging. I wouldn't want to lose that, so yes, I'd have to group up.

[Jaycub]

6v6 reikfactory would be really fun, there is so many paths and strats you could come up on that map compared to the other more straight forwards objective based maps.

Just think of all the different ways you could split up and head out to one of the 3 objectives.

An emphasis on strategy could also mean a moving away from boring melee trains, as maybe now classes that are valued for their 1v1 potential become a valuable assets for an example, or how well they can hold a point, or...

For instance maybe you want to pick up a SW and try to use him as a lurk/solo player to mess w/ whoever they send to their close point, maybe you have a full tank spec knight you have sit on mid while you storm the back objective w/ 4... etc...

And of course you would have your DM SC's like MT where a whole different type of meta would be present (which is basically what we have now).

[Wraithedge]

Most games find a way to cater to “their kind of player”. And there is nothing wrong with that. Some games reach out to wide swaths of diverse players and their styles and some games just focus on a narrow band of experiences leaving the rest to go their own way.

It does not seem like this venture has the reach to spread itself around to multiple tiers of players and their styles. This effort has to pick its player type and that's what we all get. I am not looking to demonize that, but facts seem to be facts.

So scenarios will simply favor premades. Period. No way around that. And maybe that seems like the natural order of things. All things in its place. If I were to lay it out like so...

Most Likely to win – Premades
Less likely to win – PuGs that works together
Least likely to win – PuGs that do not work together

It would seem like the most natural and organic thing around. Of course that is how it should go, yes?

But the slightly uglier side of that coin is that anyone who plays this game casually will simply be denied scenarios and whatever comes from them. They are not the right kind of player. And I feel like many of the “solo que” arguments spring from the idea that they do not want to be the butt of the joke. They do not want to be the second-class citizen in this community.

But there just isn't enough game here for everyone to have a place. Scenarios really are "make a group or gtfo" and there is no place for casual players or solo players in them. There are many things about this effort that one will simply have to accept and this is just one of them.

Scenrios are for premades, PuGs are their prey.

[jbrutal]

Premades = meta gaming

[Forbiddian]

Unfortunately, I can see Penril's point.

If some players are determined to maliciously stomp weaker players, they're going to do that, regardless of the effect on the game. I find that such people don't tend to care about the long-term effects - they'll blame the developers of the game for not finding a solution to prevent their actions and move on to the next game.

i couldnt say better myself, thank for this comment

[whineston]

make another queue for players under 20
so people coming up can still queue for RR
and level 20s get even matches

for the most part it's the people leveling who create unbalanced scs

[Hogtooth]

I see both sides of the argument and I fall on the side that Grulo has been voicing but I understand its not good for the player base if they feel they have no chance. From day one this game has been about grouping, so no premade does not = meta gaming. Make a friend, join a guild, learn your skills and what rotation is optimal. Communication is what makes a good premade.

I forget what GW2 called their competetive q but they had a quing system that would allow you to q solo to full group and then a random pug qing system. Not sure how that could ever be implemented but with the player base as it is now it would not work.

[Tklees]

long post inc....

I started off as a casual player in War long long ago, it was my first mmo. I didnt know what detaunt was or pots or really anything. I joined a invite everyone guild and I got a little better at the game. The experienced people taught me some things and i stopped dying all the time. I was a pug. I did not know any better. I didnt know what word of pain was or if i was being loaded up on by a sorc or if some squigg was setting me up for a M2 bomb. It wasnt until I really started trying to learn about the game and the other classes that I got any better. Where am i going with this?

Eventually some nice hardcore people took me in and I learned to assist and such as penril has stated in all his posts. BUT the desire to be better at the game has to be there from the player. If a pug wants to be a pug they arent going to get any better at the game and that frustrates the hardcore players whether they be solo or not. Ive run in top end premades and EC, eternal citadel, weekends were like christmas for us. We got to fight the other 6mans and test our skill versus theres because that is what most hardcore players are looking for.

Some as Penril said as well just want to stop pugs, i can name a few guilds on this server that do it all the time and call themselves the elite but wont because I dont need this turning into some troll post. I do not think seperating the ques is a good thing to do. It will create serious que issues for the groups that want to do SCs. I think the SC balance issue in general would be alot less of one if the following happened:

1. only 6 grouped players per 12 man side of an SC
2. the other slots should fill the needed rolls of a balanced group, min 1 tank and 1 healer class, whether they heal or dps or whether they are an FO tank cant be solved most likely without major work.

This gives the hardcore players a chance to fight equal competition and encourages them to help their "pug group" get better at the game a bit. It also shows new players what a group should look like without them having to ask, and encourages players to play a tank or healer for quick pops. The balance of the pug group is the most essential part of this fix because without it they are most likely 6 dps with no healer running in and dying.

my 2 cents.

[Gerv]

This is going to sound really rude, but that is not how I intended it, I can't figure another way to phrase it.

What is your definition of a "premade" op, because I have not seen very many guilds who run full grps. Maybe 4 guildies together but outside that, which guilds even run full premades?

I say this because if you were to split the ques, I dont think there are that many guilds who would consistently put together a full grp. I assume what would then happen is there would many small grps of premades and you would have similar issues of communication in the SC?

Honestly I dont mean to be rude.

[Jaycub]

Throwing pugs into the mix in a premade vs premade throws any chance of actual competition out the window. If you beat the other team they will just hide behind the "our pugs were ****" argument. If I am playing with a 6 man, I want to fight other 6 mans and when I beat them I want to know they had the same grounding as us.

At the same time I want to be able to pug and play less seriously (no mics / communication or deep strategy), but not run into dorks running meta milker premades turning the scenario into a concentration camp for the other side. Which is what happens often right now.

This would mean solo que MMR, and Group Que MMR. 6v6 competitive SC que (MMR tied to guild), 12v12 pug solo only que, and 12v12 casual group/solo que.

But that's just my opinion, and something I probably picked up after playing so many competitive games. Some people can argue that warhammer isn't designed, nor should be designed or re tooled by the devs to cater to people like me. But I will give my 2 cents anyways. I would like to see SC's become the competitive side of WAR, and ORvR to be the casual/fun side.