Suggestion: Cut stealth duration by 50%

[Martok]

Why should everyone have to wait to leave a WC as a group...?

Wait, wait, I got this one.

Because RoR is a group game not a solo game you should be in a group because this is a group game and grouping is the way because this is a group game we don't care about solo because this is a group game group group group group marching up and down again!

There's no discharge in the war!

...and what impact does that have on everyone else's ability to mess around without a group if they are in the mood?

I am always in the mood for messing around without a group. All solo roamers are. In that regard, one operates independent of the other.

If a DPS RP is hanging around the WC they are going to get killed sooner or later, not so for stealthers. This is why stealth needs adjusting.

Ok, seriously. Stealth does not need to be nerfed. Or adjusted.

The essence of a stealth class is that it can go into stealth. Without the ability to go into stealth, it is no longer a stealth class. Being able to operate in stealth is what defines the class. You want to destroy that because, what, Witch Elves can pop out and stab you? That is what Witch Elves do. And those other guys, whatever they are called.

The point is you don't fix a problem, or even the notion of a problem, by destroying the very essence of what defines a class. You might as well delete the class.

There are ways to combat stealth operators, means to negate their initial advantage, without tying one hand behind the back of the stealth class. Just play your class with an understanding of how and why Witch Elves (and those other guys) operate. Its one of the beauty's of the game, man.

[nat3s]

No other class can reset in this way.

So stagger does not help reset fights? Snare+charge/flee does not reset fights? Punt someone to the moon does not reset fights? Argue your cause but don't lie or misrepresent facts please.

First, that quote was in reference to stealth, which means that he’s, no other class can reset in that way.

Second, WE/WH have literally all of the tools you mentioned at their disposal, in addition to the rest of their kit.

The argument isn’t that no one else can reset and disengage from fights. The argument is that no one else can reset fights and disengage as well as WH/WE can.

To argue otherwise is extremely disingenuous.

Classes have roles, WE/WH isn't going to be anywhere near as potent as a Slayer/Choppa/Mara/MSH/WL/BW/Sorc in an SC or WB. Other classes can solo better, I'd put WE/WH 4th in the solo meta. If you played a WE/WH you'd know stealth isn't infinite so you're riding around regularly to find a corner and you'll often turn a corner into a 6-man / WB and go splat. Not to mention get whelped straight out of WC like everyone else. You got owned in a few 1v1s but dont see the scars a solo player carries from having a rough ride to the blobbers. All the big named WH/WE die more than they kill, compare that to a WB centric class where you'll see they'll have as high as a 4:1 K/D ratio.

It's just different specialties. If you remove stealth or nerf it or take away some burst then you'd be left with a class which doesn't have the group utility or aoe damage of a WB/SC farmer, insanely low survivability and not even 1v1 play to fall back on. What kind of a class is that?

Post your main, i'll help you out with builds. Ill post my WH, WE, RP, Mag, AM and Sham (all solo setup, all use armour talis or tough and regen) if you like?

[zgolec]

"How about NO?!" - Dr. Evil

Honestly, before you bash the only 2 stealth classes in the game you should roll one first. Your idea is pathetic and selfish.

How about yes?
I got 70+ we and wh.
Stealth should be like it was on live.

Specially now when WE got pounce which is absolute bs, destro cried and pounce got nerfed on WL... then destro get double pounce like it was nothing.

[nat3s]

"How about NO?!" - Dr. Evil

Honestly, before you bash the only 2 stealth classes in the game you should roll one first. Your idea is pathetic and selfish.

How about yes?
I got 70+ we and wh.
Stealth should be like it was on live.

Specially now when WE got pounce which is absolute bs, destro cried and pounce got nerfed on WL... then destro get double pounce like it was nothing.

Ok big boy, post your WH and WE and lets see whether your K:D is positive (assuming you solo roam rather than blob hug). For your point to be valid, you must be wrecking face right.

[georgehabadasher]

So stagger does not help reset fights? Snare+charge/flee does not reset fights? Punt someone to the moon does not reset fights? Argue your cause but don't lie or misrepresent facts please.

First, that quote was in reference to stealth, which means that he’s, no other class can reset in that way.

Second, WE/WH have literally all of the tools you mentioned at their disposal, in addition to the rest of their kit.

The argument isn’t that no one else can reset and disengage from fights. The argument is that no one else can reset fights and disengage as well as WH/WE can.

To argue otherwise is extremely disingenuous.

Classes have roles, WE/WH isn't going to be anywhere near as potent as a Slayer/Choppa/Mara/MSH/WL/BW/Sorc in an SC or WB. Other classes can solo better, I'd put WE/WH 4th in the solo meta. If you played a WE/WH you'd know stealth isn't infinite so you're riding around regularly to find a corner and you'll often turn a corner into a 6-man / WB and go splat. Not to mention get whelped straight out of WC like everyone else. You got owned in a few 1v1s but dont see the scars a solo player carries from having a rough ride to the blobbers. All the big named WH/WE die more than they kill, compare that to a WB centric class where you'll see they'll have as high as a 4:1 K/D ratio.

It's just different specialties. If you remove stealth or nerf it or take away some burst then you'd be left with a class which doesn't have the group utility or aoe damage of a WB/SC farmer, insanely low survivability and not even 1v1 play to fall back on. What kind of a class is that?

Post your main, i'll help you out with builds. Ill post my WH, WE, RP, Mag, AM and Sham (all solo setup, all use armour talis or tough and regen) if you like?

They are excellent in small roaming parties, scenario parties and only fall off in aoe damage in warbands. However, even in that case, competitive warbands run single target groups (or used to when people engaged in that content).

Even if they were worse in groups, which they aren’t, that isn’t an argument for making them overturned in solo play, it’s an argument for buffing their ability to contribute to groups—which, again, has already been done.

[nat3s]

Key point, they're overtuned to you, I have no problem with them.

[georgehabadasher]

Key point, they're overtuned to you, I have no problem with them.

According to your previous post only 5 classes are viable solo - magus, am, shaman, we and wh. Because you, when playing these 5 classes, are able to deal with wh/we, you’re arguing they’re not overtuned.

You also mentioned that you need armor talismans and return gear. That’s a several thousand gold investment, only viable on ~20% of classs just to be viable in solo play. Yes, a few other classes are also overtuned in solo play. That doesn’t mean that wh/we are balanced.

[eigner93]

Dont touch stealth duration directly. Implement ways to counter stealth or cancell it. Engi turret tactic is a wasted tactic slot for engi and still useless. Initiate is pretty much useless and who wants to stack it other than tanks and mby healers? Its ridiculous that a class can just stealth away in the middle of combat when 3 people are hitting them and actually get away after, no matter that they used morale 1 or absorb potion. Like come on people wake up. Before the mini change of Shadow Prowling while already in stealth from Elixir of Shadows, i remember all the wh/we saying ye this is fine the same way. Sure other classes have means to disengage, but not when a group of people are chasing you. If you are any other class and a group is chasing you, you die.

My suggestion would be 30 AP drained after each hit taken during stealth. If atleast 3-4 people start spamming aoe after you go stealth you will likely come out. but you can still make those few seconds count or outplay the group by positioning well.

[Narfii]

I can’t see how you’re disagreeing. The argument is that wh/we have access to a kit that lets them disengage and engage in a way no other class can, while still retaining all the advantages of other mdps classes. Almost every sentence in your post supports that position.

I use stealth minimally tbh and try to save it for resets.

No other class can reset in this way.

Sure, you get more agency in this decision than other classes.

Exactly.

Very rarely am I able to escape against more than a couple targets in a flat scenario without utilizing los or other shenanigans.

Emphasis mine. No other class can hope to do this, except WL, and their opponents need to badly misplay.

You can buy time various ways to get to m1/elixir but this again requires positioning and timing knowledge, dt, pots, etc.

No other class can do this.

Often in these situations you're coming out of it with no CDs and likely 1 or 2 pots down. The (somewhat) guaranteed stealth escape is a THREE button combo (one being a morale), requires directional facing, AND for tanks to miss their taunts.

Any other class is just dead.

Classes excelling at things over others is a feature. I also gave you a rundown of the tradeoffs associated with playing to these strengths. You do not want homogenization. These are features of the class. Would you like to talk about the class's role in warbands (it's still not great)?

[culland]

Wait, wait, I got this one.

Because RoR is a group game not a solo game you should be in a group because this is a group game and grouping is the way because this is a group game we don't care about solo because this is a group game group group group group marching up and down again!

So if its a group game and everyone should be grouped, why do we need stealth at all? Take away stealth and leave just the instant stealth ability. They will be running with a group and wont need to wander around the map stealthed, but still have the instant stealth for the stealth synergy. I do not actually want this, but by your broken logic its reasonable.