Nerf WH/WE into the ground

[nocturnalguest]

Wow this is a hot topic apparently, of course it doesn't help that I'm sure a lot of people ignore the fact I'm focusing entirely on their ability to kill people in groups then escape with ease, and are pretending is 1v1 ambushes that I think are an issue.

But ye the fact its this many posts clearly shows that either a lot of people also think they are currently an issue, or the WE/WHs are just a very toxic community that will go on for 8 pages shouting abuse for a suggestion, but I'll be honest as I expected some of that I've not kept up with it.

Your words

We've all seen instances of them jumping on a group of 6 people, killing 1 then somehow just jumping or running away with complete ease, only to do it again as their regen means they have full hp before anybody else.

I cant imagine how strong the lack of basic awarness should be that a group of 6 will lose a person to suddenly popping out WEs/WHs. Its literally NPC skill level to lose a person and should be inivitable, guaranteed death for WEs/WHs. Also i dunno who are those we, im definitely not part of those we

Also its absolutely unrealistic to figure what you actually mean as you mess up every bit of everything, give no data or clear context.

However tho, kudos 2 u, its amazing troll topic. Keep it going man, great fun

[salazarn]

I do not complain about damage. I do not mind that.

But there are several aspects of welf that are a problem

The initial wounds debuff regularly removes 2.5k dmg if used as first hit
The defence spec does too much dmg for being 2 tanky due to 600 absorb talent
The double leap hard counters kite


It isnt a fair class right now

[Panzer80]

I do not complain about damage. I do not mind that.

But there are several aspects of welf that are a problem

The initial wounds debuff regularly removes 2.5k dmg if used as first hit
The defence spec does too much dmg for being 2 tanky due to 600 absorb talent
The double leap hard counters kite


It isnt a fair class right now

You can't complain about WE without complaining about WH, which is stronger. There has been an influx of new player over the past year + with more being on order and a lot are going to the forums when they die to a WE when they were out of position. None of those things you mention are as overdone as anything on WH. The wounds debuff is needed to kill endgame healers. The absorb is 1/2 of the anti-thesis to the WH's Repel Blasphemy and overturned Atonement tactic (possible the most op tactic in RoR) and is one of the things that lets WE compete against OP tanks like Kotbs or even WL's. Your complaint here is a confusion with the games def/offense scaling. The tactic isn't too strong and only works when critically hit. Also, "defense spec" almost always uses offensive aspects like offensive tactics, magic damage stacks or strength stacking. All magic damages have a lower difference in resist cap. Not just WE. Double leap? Most ranged healer dps have multiple tools to cc and hit from 100ft. True ranged classes have not yet been overhauled. Keep that in mind.

[Panzer80]

Wow this is a hot topic apparently, of course it doesn't help that I'm sure a lot of people ignore the fact I'm focusing entirely on their ability to kill people in groups then escape with ease, and are pretending is 1v1 ambushes that I think are an issue.

But ye the fact its this many posts clearly shows that either a lot of people also think they are currently an issue, or the WE/WHs are just a very toxic community that will go on for 8 pages shouting abuse for a suggestion, but I'll be honest as I expected some of that I've not kept up with it.

That's because new players who don't have a robust perception have been coming on here for over a year + complaining about WE's mostly. At least you mentioned both. What happened last big mdps patch was the changes caused more WH/WE's to roam around in groups, like you say. While part of the patch was to make WE/WH more WB viable, it seemed to have the opposite effect, causing more WH/WE roaming groups. There was also the problem of WH/WE not having killing power against defense stacking while still being fragile. That of course made squish target melt much faster and complaints increased (99% for WE for some reason...) It has died down a bit, though.

[Shieldslam]

You can't complain about WE without complaining about WH, which is stronger. There has been an influx of new player over the past year + with more being on order and a lot are going to the forums when they die to a WE when they were out of position. None of those things you mention are as overdone as anything on WH. The wounds debuff is needed to kill endgame healers. The absorb is 1/2 of the anti-thesis to the WH's Repel Blasphemy and overturned Atonement tactic (possible the most op tactic in RoR) and is one of the things that lets WE compete against OP tanks like Kotbs or even WL's. Your complaint here is a confusion with the games def/offense scaling. The tactic isn't too strong and only works when critically hit. Also, "defense spec" almost always uses offensive aspects like offensive tactics, magic damage stacks or strength stacking. All magic damages have a lower difference in resist cap. Not just WE. Double leap? Most ranged healer dps have multiple tools to cc and hit from 100ft. True ranged classes have not yet been overhauled. Keep that in mind.

Honestly insane to read that. OP tanks like KOTBS? Oh my I seem to have engaged an incredibly tanky class which reflects damage in melee, how could this possibly happen to me? What could I possibly do to avoid such a situation? Exactly, you just don't fight them and literally walk away from them. It really is THAT easy, the class has no ability to force you to fight them. Says a lot when the ego is so high you can't possibly fathom not being able to beat every single class in a 1v1. Saying KOTBS is OP genuinely is beyond unbelievable.
WH/WE on the other hand FORCE you to fight them because they get a free gapcloser/opener (stealth) and unlike WE at least you can punt WH > flee while strafing and they won't catch up. WH (and WE) was ALWAYS weak to being kited and the moment they get punted the fight usually is over for them, that is their weakness besides having high statrequirementss due to physical only and being squishy - things WE doesn't suffer from nowadays anymore. WE leap before required you to be IN stealth which realistically means max 1 usage from elixir, it was so terrible I've probably seen it used like 5-10 times in my entire time playing on this server before mdps rework.

"Wounds debuff needed to kill endgame healers" maybe it has not occurred to you yet (did someone boost all those rr80+ for you?) but healers in this game, especially these days, are NOT meant to die to one DPS - if that was the case healers wouldn't be playable because they either get focused down immediately or simply don't heal enough when it comes to numbers. Defending an ability by saying without it you wouldn't be able to solo kill healers is so far off I'm genuinely speechless. Telling someone else they are confused about the games scaling while clearly lacking knowledge yourself. Everyone has a chance to be crit by default (+dps classes gear/weapon usually has a few % crit) so the absorb tactic WILL trigger whether the opponent builds crit or not, you're trying to pass it off as if the tactic doesn't work at all against anyone who doesn't build crit. WH's RB is incredibly strong, always was, yet you can avoid it by just setting up an aura and quite literally walking away from them the same way you counter M1 parry mdps classes have + it can be parried (lolxd) and has 30s CD. WH has their own issues and are oppressive in their own way but nowhere near WE (nerf both btw) because they still clearly have counters. Stealth needs to be reworked entirely, no way around that.

Would you like to tell me how exactly a healer is supposed to use their "multiple" tools to get away from a WE despite leaps? stealth opener > punt WE (if they don't disrupt) > leap > kite with puddle > leap > you're out of cc and options while WE is still sniffing your rear, where exactly is the counterplay? I played heal AM recently myself a bit and it genuinely is near impossible to get WEs off of you (even terrible ones) because they happen to have 3 gapclosers (stealth, 2x leap) while you have 2 disengages (punt, puddle) so just mathematically it already doesn't quite work out. Your best bet is hoping they don't know how to walk (actually high chance with all those fotm rerollers) and kite them around trees/objects. Do you mind enlightening me with the secret knowledge you seem to possess?

[Panzer80]

You can't complain about WE without complaining about WH, which is stronger. There has been an influx of new player over the past year + with more being on order and a lot are going to the forums when they die to a WE when they were out of position. None of those things you mention are as overdone as anything on WH. The wounds debuff is needed to kill endgame healers. The absorb is 1/2 of the anti-thesis to the WH's Repel Blasphemy and overturned Atonement tactic (possible the most op tactic in RoR) and is one of the things that lets WE compete against OP tanks like Kotbs or even WL's. Your complaint here is a confusion with the games def/offense scaling. The tactic isn't too strong and only works when critically hit. Also, "defense spec" almost always uses offensive aspects like offensive tactics, magic damage stacks or strength stacking. All magic damages have a lower difference in resist cap. Not just WE. Double leap? Most ranged healer dps have multiple tools to cc and hit from 100ft. True ranged classes have not yet been overhauled. Keep that in mind.

Honestly insane to read that. OP tanks like KOTBS? Oh my I seem to have engaged an incredibly tanky class which reflects damage in melee, how could this possibly happen to me? What could I possibly do to avoid such a situation? Exactly, you just don't fight them and literally walk away from them. It really is THAT easy, the class has no ability to force you to fight them. Says a lot when the ego is so high you can't possibly fathom not being able to beat every single class in a 1v1. Saying KOTBS is OP genuinely is beyond unbelievable.
WH/WE on the other hand FORCE you to fight them because they get a free gapcloser/opener (stealth) and unlike WE at least you can punt WH > flee while strafing and they won't catch up. WH (and WE) was ALWAYS weak to being kited and the moment they get punted the fight usually is over for them, that is their weakness besides having high statrequirementss due to physical only and being squishy - things WE doesn't suffer from nowadays anymore. WE leap before required you to be IN stealth which realistically means max 1 usage from elixir, it was so terrible I've probably seen it used like 5-10 times in my entire time playing on this server before mdps rework.

"Wounds debuff needed to kill endgame healers" maybe it has not occurred to you yet (did someone boost all those rr80+ for you?) but healers in this game, especially these days, are NOT meant to die to one DPS - if that was the case healers wouldn't be playable because they either get focused down immediately or simply don't heal enough when it comes to numbers. Defending an ability by saying without it you wouldn't be able to solo kill healers is so far off I'm genuinely speechless. Telling someone else they are confused about the games scaling while clearly lacking knowledge yourself. Everyone has a chance to be crit by default (+dps classes gear/weapon usually has a few % crit) so the absorb tactic WILL trigger whether the opponent builds crit or not, you're trying to pass it off as if the tactic doesn't work at all against anyone who doesn't build crit. WH's RB is incredibly strong, always was, yet you can avoid it by just setting up an aura and quite literally walking away from them the same way you counter M1 parry mdps classes have + it can be parried (lolxd) and has 30s CD. WH has their own issues and are oppressive in their own way but nowhere near WE (nerf both btw) because they still clearly have counters. Stealth needs to be reworked entirely, no way around that.

Would you like to tell me how exactly a healer is supposed to use their "multiple" tools to get away from a WE despite leaps? stealth opener > punt WE (if they don't disrupt) > leap > kite with puddle > leap > you're out of cc and options while WE is still sniffing your rear, where exactly is the counterplay? I played heal AM recently myself a bit and it genuinely is near impossible to get WEs off of you (even terrible ones) because they happen to have 3 gapclosers (stealth, 2x leap) while you have 2 disengages (punt, puddle) so just mathematically it already doesn't quite work out. Your best bet is hoping they don't know how to walk (actually high chance with all those fotm rerollers) and kite them around trees/objects. Do you mind enlightening me with the secret knowledge you seem to possess?

Thanks for justifying my post unintentionally.

[rorswar]

You can't complain about WE without complaining about WH, which is stronger. There has been an influx of new player over the past year + with more being on order and a lot are going to the forums when they die to a WE when they were out of position.

Sure, let’s blame all the WE posts because order gets most of the new players, whilst everyone can see the facts:

Last 365 days, Destro had a +1.83% advantage on average. The last 90 days, roughly since the mDPS patch, this crept up to +3.65%. The last 30 days it went further up to +5.79%.

You’re just clutching at straws trying to argue why there’s a plethora of posts about WEs. Maybe there’s a valid reason for it, like there was a valid reason for tons of WL or DPS AM/Shaman posts?

[Farrul]

You can't complain about WE without complaining about WH, which is stronger. There has been an influx of new player over the past year + with more being on order and a lot are going to the forums when they die to a WE when they were out of position. None of those things you mention are as overdone as anything on WH. The wounds debuff is needed to kill endgame healers. The absorb is 1/2 of the anti-thesis to the WH's Repel Blasphemy and overturned Atonement tactic (possible the most op tactic in RoR) and is one of the things that lets WE compete against OP tanks like Kotbs or even WL's. Your complaint here is a confusion with the games def/offense scaling. The tactic isn't too strong and only works when critically hit. Also, "defense spec" almost always uses offensive aspects like offensive tactics, magic damage stacks or strength stacking. All magic damages have a lower difference in resist cap. Not just WE. Double leap? Most ranged healer dps have multiple tools to cc and hit from 100ft. True ranged classes have not yet been overhauled. Keep that in mind.

How is it stronger? Does WH have Pounce? Does WH have 2 x Pounce? Does WH have insane lifesteal build with WB that escapes through 5 people and survives to tell the tale, 600/3 absorb tactic? Does WH neglect Weapon skill itemization and still do insane armor ignoring DPS? Does WH put a wound debuff on the target and easily another weapon skill/toughness debuff without having to spec much into the tree?

I'm looking at tactics Swift Movements, if feinted position still grants frontal armor pierce on Agonizing wounds, then this tactic is just so completely OP. What the hell were the devs thinking here. Again was that a bug or a feature?

WH has currently one thing which makes the fotm play it, 1 it can stealth hence the best class to avoid/gank/ fight back vs the WE swarms of fotm. 2 it has atonoment which is indeed an overtuned tactic. WH deserves atonment nerf. WE deserves several nerfs because its toolkit and utility is currently busted since the December MDPS WE buff patch.

Oh so you cannot kill the toughest snb tank in the game who stacks 1050 toughness, reflects build with 50% block and vigilance, easily ? Hence WE is not OP i see, nice logic. . White Lion? Bugged pet class which yes has tools to handle WE, could be said to be overtuned in some regards but most importantly has nowhere near the presence of roaming, solo WE's simply because it lacks stealth, can easily be targeted and killed by roamers , 6 mans, wbs unlike the WE, which has all the tools in the box. You'll see one Def WL waiting in some corner of Praag for a duel/ambush/ fight to happen, meanwhile WE gank squads are farming people outside the WC area, go figure.

Listen i get nobody wants to be nerfed, but to claim WE isn't overtuned atm despite the 2 x pounce, stealth ( the ultimate gap closer) even snare armor pierce opener that crits for 3.5 ( combined) is just a ridiculous statement. WE deserves from a balance point of view a few well placed ''adjustments'' and everyone knows this, including yourself.

[Farrul]

Everybody know's WE is the most op classes in the game got way too much utility it's ridiculous. They should be more like assasins not regen tanky high mobility class. Like in live they would do insane dmg but could not instantly stealth and pounce plus all the other tools. I preffer to die quickly than seeing a WE escaping a 6man wacking her.

Exactly, i could not fathom a honest person , that plays and knows many classes not to consider WE to be on a efficient level Crack for small scale roaming. I mean its so obvious it should not have to be mentioned. Yet the WE players argue, for the sake of it.

I do not have an agenda to nerf WE, i just want them to be balanced and stop having these insane tools which they do not need to be a good and strong class, starting with the 2 x pounce thing which was absolutely not needed addition ( looking at you RoR balance team developers, try to realize the game is more outside of your BloB vs Blob balance vision please)

P.S. No WE is not the only thing imbalanced in the game, looking at DPS runepriests for example its things the devs should prioritize as well, but this thread is about the WE/WH.

[Sever1n]

2h kotbs surprisingly strong duelist. Regen hats def build exist, sadly. WEs pounse+wounds debuff op as fk. Curently lvling one, will check what she can do in sov i terms of burst, but for hunting heals atm shes just perfect. You drown heal in ton of dots woundcutter healdebufs, then execute with feiinted + sacrifical. If u get punted u will be back tnx to pounce in notime. And you dont give crap about weaponskill. Literally all i wanted for wh burst spec went to WE. Balance went out from window starting disrupt patch. Need to make grafical display of solo/man meta for new players.