Nerf WH/WE into the ground

[salazarn]

Ok full disclosure, I main a def WE (https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 704/armory) I've been lobbying strongly to maintain the status quo, that they are not op when you specifically build against them. 857 solo kills, 86 solo deaths, however much of those deaths were lower rr and prior to switching to full def. I only really lose a 1v1 now if I missplay.

I've been playing other 80s recently and I can't really keep the facade up anymore, def WE is way overtuned. It sucks, if they are nerfed, all the effort gearing up, the 1k+ gold spent on armour talis, it's going to hurt. However, at this point, I'm in full agreement. Change is needed.

Offensive WE is still fine imo, they die like a fart in the wind and easily countered by a ton of builds, but def WE can almost roam unimpeded. I take 1v2s and 1v3s regularly now for a challenge as I can pretty much guarantee on winning a 1v1. It's not right, we are all conditioned to think we win because of skill rather than balance I suspect.

However, how do you tone them down without destroying the build and all the gold and time players have pumped into it. I think that needs a lot of consideration as much as people just want to see them gutted. It would hurt too many.

Reminds me a bit of when dps AM / Sham were left to reign supreme as the solo meta champs. That lasted years and caused a lot of harm. I think the solo and small scale meta has shrunk because such outliers haven't been corrected over time and I'd love us to get back to the small man era of 2016-2020.

I would agree. If you are a solo player using reg welf you are just killing the lakes cos no one wants to play against it. I would argue zealot / runie are also annoying.

Classes like squiggie or dps welf / wh are far more forgivable because despite doing badonkers daamge they have weaknesses and die. Similarly chosen might be OP from a pure fightiness perspective but it is countered by the fact it is slow and so boring to play no one will do it long

[FeelFreeToDie]

Ok full disclosure, I main a def WE (https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 704/armory) I've been lobbying strongly to maintain the status quo, that they are not op when you specifically build against them. 857 solo kills, 86 solo deaths, however much of those deaths were lower rr and prior to switching to full def. I only really lose a 1v1 now if I missplay.

I've been playing other 80s recently and I can't really keep the facade up anymore, def WE is way overtuned. It sucks, if they are nerfed, all the effort gearing up, the 1k+ gold spent on armour talis, it's going to hurt. However, at this point, I'm in full agreement. Change is needed.

Offensive WE is still fine imo, they die like a fart in the wind and easily countered by a ton of builds, but def WE can almost roam unimpeded. I take 1v2s and 1v3s regularly now for a challenge as I can pretty much guarantee on winning a 1v1. It's not right, we are all conditioned to think we win because of skill rather than balance I suspect.

However, how do you tone them down without destroying the build and all the gold and time players have pumped into it. I think that needs a lot of consideration as much as people just want to see them gutted. It would hurt too many.

Reminds me a bit of when dps AM / Sham were left to reign supreme as the solo meta champs. That lasted years and caused a lot of harm. I think the solo and small scale meta has shrunk because such outliers haven't been corrected over time and I'd love us to get back to the small man era of 2016-2020.

Dum dum duuuuuuum. What is the funniest that i feel like they are becoming tiny bit stronger each patch with buff to the regen tali, devs leaving in a high dps 1.6 AS weapon only for WEs and the event item which is unrelated, however it adds extra to the already loaded regen/absorb kit they have. And i am afraid with the renown changes they might buff regen again.

Yeah leaving in 2 options for 1.6 daggers did seem a bit odd.

I like regen being viable and it touches on a lot of classes/builds besides WEs if changed. I think it's probably come to a point where WE needs to lose a little corp damage for physical damage and have an ICD on kiss heal procs so you can't stack up to 85% increased auto attack speed to have corp dmg and heal procs chaining quite so significantly. Contrary to popular opinion, I think the 600 absorb tactic is fine, it doesn't fire on DoT crits, only direct damage and you need to be crit of course for it to trigger, it also has a 3s ICD so I find the regular 375 absorb which fires off non-crits to be just as tanky. The big diff is that passive regen for me which alongside the tactic, is a bit too much imo.

I don't like saying this, I spent so much time and gold on mine and I bought the def sov set, I don't have the offensive sov set to fall back on, so if def WE is completely nerfed, I'd be in a bit of trouble playing my favourite char. It is what it is, but I've come to realise it is a problem.

The problem is if, lets say, devs change Witchbrew to phys. instead of corp. damage- then WEs middle mastery tree going to be used only for elixir and/or HD...same for WH? Well, its mirror classes. seems fair :>

[Krima]

Dum dum duuuuuuum. What is the funniest that i feel like they are becoming tiny bit stronger each patch with buff to the regen tali, devs leaving in a high dps 1.6 AS weapon only for WEs and the event item which is unrelated, however it adds extra to the already loaded regen/absorb kit they have. And i am afraid with the renown changes they might buff regen again.

Yeah leaving in 2 options for 1.6 daggers did seem a bit odd.

I like regen being viable and it touches on a lot of classes/builds besides WEs if changed. I think it's probably come to a point where WE needs to lose a little corp damage for physical damage and have an ICD on kiss heal procs so you can't stack up to 85% increased auto attack speed to have corp dmg and heal procs chaining quite so significantly. Contrary to popular opinion, I think the 600 absorb tactic is fine, it doesn't fire on DoT crits, only direct damage and you need to be crit of course for it to trigger, it also has a 3s ICD so I find the regular 375 absorb which fires off non-crits to be just as tanky. The big diff is that passive regen for me which alongside the tactic, is a bit too much imo.

I don't like saying this, I spent so much time and gold on mine and I bought the def sov set, I don't have the offensive sov set to fall back on, so if def WE is completely nerfed, I'd be in a bit of trouble playing my favourite char. It is what it is, but I've come to realise it is a problem.

The problem is if, lets say, devs change Witchbrew to phys. instead of corp. damage- then WEs middle mastery tree going to be used only for elixir and/or HD...same for WH? Well, its mirror classes. seems fair :>

I don't think changing Witchbrew to physical damage is the right way to go. It will end up hitting for very little and would completely compromise the DPS spec of the class.
Are you guys really that afraid of defensive WE/WH? Just remove Kiss of Doom and Sanctified Bullets from the game. Wasn't their healing already nerfed from 150% to 100% before? If they're still a problem, why not remove the healing entirely?

The game isn't balanced around 1v1, and it's important to remember that. Defensive WE/WH has virtually no place in scenarios, cities, fortresses, ranked, 6v6, or warbands. It's exclusively a roaming 1v1 spec.

Here's a def regen WE vs. defensive WL duel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILWlqcwlYh8

Just meh build, IMO very very overrated those def regen WE.

[FeelFreeToDie]

Yeah leaving in 2 options for 1.6 daggers did seem a bit odd.

I like regen being viable and it touches on a lot of classes/builds besides WEs if changed. I think it's probably come to a point where WE needs to lose a little corp damage for physical damage and have an ICD on kiss heal procs so you can't stack up to 85% increased auto attack speed to have corp dmg and heal procs chaining quite so significantly. Contrary to popular opinion, I think the 600 absorb tactic is fine, it doesn't fire on DoT crits, only direct damage and you need to be crit of course for it to trigger, it also has a 3s ICD so I find the regular 375 absorb which fires off non-crits to be just as tanky. The big diff is that passive regen for me which alongside the tactic, is a bit too much imo.

I don't like saying this, I spent so much time and gold on mine and I bought the def sov set, I don't have the offensive sov set to fall back on, so if def WE is completely nerfed, I'd be in a bit of trouble playing my favourite char. It is what it is, but I've come to realise it is a problem.

The problem is if, lets say, devs change Witchbrew to phys. instead of corp. damage- then WEs middle mastery tree going to be used only for elixir and/or HD...same for WH? Well, its mirror classes. seems fair :>

I don't think changing Witchbrew to physical damage is the right way to go. It will end up hitting for very little and would completely compromise the DPS spec of the class.
Are you guys really that afraid of defensive WE/WH? Just remove Kiss of Doom and Sanctified Bullets from the game. Wasn't their healing already nerfed from 150% to 100% before? If they're still a problem, why not remove the healing entirely?

The game isn't balanced around 1v1, and it's important to remember that. Defensive WE/WH has virtually no place in scenarios, cities, fortresses, ranked, 6v6, or warbands. It's exclusively a roaming 1v1 spec.

Here's a def regen WE vs. defensive WL duel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILWlqcwlYh8

Just meh build, IMO very very overrated those def regen WE.

i didnt say it should be nerfed. i say if WB doing phys.damage- spec is ruined :>

[Shieldslam]

I don't think changing Witchbrew to physical damage is the right way to go. It will end up hitting for very little and would completely compromise the DPS spec of the class.

You're telling us that, god forbid, WE might have to invest into weapon skill just like any non-caster dps? Outrageous!
Besides, the "dps spec" is SS/right tree while WB/middle is the dot/sustain spec.

Are you guys really that afraid of defensive WE/WH?

Personally yes I am "afraid" of a defensive WE simply because, as Yoluigi mentioned on page 22, it is mathematically impossible to beat a defensive WE who didn't shove both their hands up their rear. Between pots and the passive amount of healing coupled with heavy defensive investment you are not going to beat them unless you're playing a similarly overtuned build. Last I played I just disengaged and refused to fight them (just like regen tanks) because it's unbelievably boring to fight. It's the same as fighting a toughness stacking dps-healers or deftard Tank, with the difference that WE also happens to have baseline antiheal, gapclosers, stealth and the ability to disengage easily when the fight turns bad for them. I'd say that fights should be decided based on performance but this game has terrible matchups to a point where it's usually decided by the choice of class alone anyway.

The game isn't balanced around 1v1, and it's important to remember that. Defensive WE/WH has virtually no place in scenarios, cities, fortresses, ranked, 6v6, or warbands. It's exclusively a roaming 1v1 spec.

Neither do regen WLs, regen 2h tanks, dps healers as a whole (maybe 1x RP in WB for armor debuff?), def Magus, kiting SH, keg def Engi yet they are complained about as well. Defending a spec/build which has been terrorizing the playerbase for months, or even years at this point, by saying it's not viable or wanted in other aspects it's an insane statement. Barely anyone wants to go anywhere by themselves anymore in fear or getting attacked by a nearly invincible AND invisible (or die in a single KD out of stealth from SS/BAL) build which only further funnels into the blob vs blob gameplay people complain so much about. The only choices you have left when logging in are between fighting hordes of stealthers or hours of boring blobfights. Barely anyone wants to roam on anything but dps-healer and WE anymore because it's unrewarding and a complete waste of time - years ago we had all kinds of classes roaming but those have all been pushed away. The fact that these threads on a regular basis end up with so many pages, even more than actual patch notes, speaks for itself really.

What a lot of people don't understand is how the playerbase works on private servers. You are not just winning fights by playing a build like that, you are actively driving people away from the game and every person who decides to quit leaves a small hole and before you know there won't be anyone left to fight except for the people playing the same lame build as you. You're not showing your superior gameplay, you're just griefing yourself and the ones interested in keeping the server alive to boost your ego. I mean look at NA graveyard hours, it's PvDoor with both sides having legions of stealthers camping each other at warcamp, how long do you think people will keep up with this before quitting? Less players = more stealthers = less players finding a purpose to play because there's nothing going on besides fighting stealthers so they stop. There's only a certain amount of people interested in playing RoR (mostly nostalgia or warhammer fans) and once those are gone there's no backup waiting in line to join, it's just over.

[Krima]

I don't think changing Witchbrew to physical damage is the right way to go. It will end up hitting for very little and would completely compromise the DPS spec of the class.

You're telling us that, god forbid, WE might have to invest into weapon skill just like any non-caster dps? Outrageous!
Besides, the "dps spec" is SS/right tree while WB/middle is the dot/sustain spec.

Are you guys really that afraid of defensive WE/WH?

Personally yes I am "afraid" of a defensive WE simply because, as Yoluigi mentioned on page 22, it is mathematically impossible to beat a defensive WE who didn't shove both their hands up their rear. Between pots and the passive amount of healing coupled with heavy defensive investment you are not going to beat them unless you're playing a similarly overtuned build. Last I played I just disengaged and refused to fight them (just like regen tanks) because it's unbelievably boring to fight. It's the same as fighting a toughness stacking dps-healers or deftard Tank, with the difference that WE also happens to have baseline antiheal, gapclosers, stealth and the ability to disengage easily when the fight turns bad for them. I'd say that fights should be decided based on performance but this game has terrible matchups to a point where it's usually decided by the choice of class alone anyway.

The game isn't balanced around 1v1, and it's important to remember that. Defensive WE/WH has virtually no place in scenarios, cities, fortresses, ranked, 6v6, or warbands. It's exclusively a roaming 1v1 spec.

Neither do regen WLs, regen 2h tanks, dps healers as a whole (maybe 1x RP in WB for armor debuff?), def Magus, kiting SH, keg def Engi yet they are complained about as well. Defending a spec/build which has been terrorizing the playerbase for months, or even years at this point, by saying it's not viable or wanted in other aspects it's an insane statement. Barely anyone wants to go anywhere by themselves anymore in fear or getting attacked by a nearly invincible AND invisible (or die in a single KD out of stealth from SS/BAL) build which only further funnels into the blob vs blob gameplay people complain so much about. The only choices you have left when logging in are between fighting hordes of stealthers or hours of boring blobfights. Barely anyone wants to roam on anything but dps-healer and WE anymore because it's unrewarding and a complete waste of time - years ago we had all kinds of classes roaming but those have all been pushed away. The fact that these threads on a regular basis end up with so many pages, even more than actual patch notes, speaks for itself really.

What a lot of people don't understand is how the playerbase works on private servers. You are not just winning fights by playing a build like that, you are actively driving people away from the game and every person who decides to quit leaves a small hole and before you know there won't be anyone left to fight except for the people playing the same lame build as you. You're not showing your superior gameplay, you're just griefing yourself and the ones interested in keeping the server alive to boost your ego. I mean look at NA graveyard hours, it's PvDoor with both sides having legions of stealthers camping each other at warcamp, how long do you think people will keep up with this before quitting? Less players = more stealthers = less players finding a purpose to play because there's nothing going on besides fighting stealthers so they stop. There's only a certain amount of people interested in playing RoR (mostly nostalgia or warhammer fans) and once those are gone there's no backup waiting in line to join, it's just over.

As I said, remove Kiss of Doom and Sanctified Bullets from the game. Signed by Krima I agree with that. That change alone would be a major hit to the build and its sustain.

There's no need to rework Witchbrew, which has been around for years and isn't even that strong anymore. As players have geared up and gained much higher Wounds, its impact has naturally decreased. Back when T3 and early T4 launched, Witchbrew was the real powerhouse.

Removing Kiss of Doom and Sanctified Bullets also means there's no need to nerf regeneration gear that's available to every class.

[nat3s]

Agree nerfing WB to be physical doesnt feel like the way to go, its thematic and final talents should be reasonably useful. I think any changes need to be much smaller steps, for me, the following would be reasonable:

* 3s ICD on kiss procs.
* Wracking Pains switched to physical.
* Daggers normalised to 2.2 speed or higher.

Still leaves regen / absorb and auto attack bonus stacking viable, but tones down frequency of proc heals/dmg. Wracking Pains also a slight dps nerf.

See how it performs and iterate if needed.

I personally disagree with not addressing small man performance, for years it was WL, then AM/Sham, then def WE, having 1-2 classes dominate solo play has resulted in the solo scene drying up a bit, far harder to find a decent fight nowadays compared to 5-6 years ago imo.