Official T2 RvR Solution Discussion Thread

[Azuzu]

My suggestion is to make PvP about players fighting players, rather than fighting doors. At the same time make keep taking incentivesed.

How we do this?

1: Make players have a high chance (10%) to drop medals. Let players have this chance to drop medals anywhere in an RvR lake. It's important to let players who like to roam and setup strategic choke points get rewarded as well. Around BOs and Keeps it's ok to increase that chance to 15%.

2: Add AAO, along with exp/rr make AAO effect the chance to drop medals. At 0 AAO players have a 10% chance to drop a medal, at 400% players have a 40% or even 50% chance.

3: Leave keep taking incentivesed, let keep takes give 5 medals per take and rr/exp. I believe if we make killing players worth while enough fighting will occur, but we don't want to completely neglect the keep taking aspect.

4: Increase the overall cost of the gear to match the increased ways to get it.

5: Leave the RvR locking system the way it is, the server pop is too small imo to spread it across 3 zones.

I really like this, BUT I think 5 might need to be changed to 2 open and 1 locked. You're still gonna end with a faction giving up if they are forced to fight in the same zone as the zerg of the opposite faction.

You could also make AAO increase the amount of medals given to say 2 - 3 ( 2 @ 200% AAO 3 @ 400%) People won't give up if 2 kills gives them as many medals as the people taking the keep.

[Razid1987]

My suggestion is to make PvP about players fighting players, rather than fighting doors. At the same time make keep taking incentivesed.

How we do this?

1: Make players have a high chance (10%) to drop medals. Let players have this chance to drop medals anywhere in an RvR lake. It's important to let players who like to roam and setup strategic choke points get rewarded as well. Around BOs and Keeps it's ok to increase that chance to 15%.

2: Add AAO, along with exp/rr make AAO effect the chance to drop medals. At 0 AAO players have a 10% chance to drop a medal, at 400% players have a 40% or even 50% chance.

3: Leave keep taking incentivesed, let keep takes give 5 medals per take and rr/exp. I believe if we make killing players worth while enough fighting will occur, but we don't want to completely neglect the keep taking aspect.

4: Increase the overall cost of the gear to match the increased ways to get it.

5: Leave the RvR locking system the way it is, the server pop is too small imo to spread it across 3 zones.

I really like this, BUT I think 5 might need to be changed to 2 open and 1 locked. You're still gonna end with a faction giving up if they are forced to fight in the same zone as the zerg of the opposite faction.

You could also make AAO increase the amount of medals given to say 2 - 3 ( 2 @ 200% AAO 3 @ 400%) People won't give up if 2 kills gives them as many medals as the people taking the keep.

People will give up if they don't see a way of winning, no matter how great the rewards are.

[Azuzu]

People will give up if they don't see a way of winning, no matter how great the rewards are.[/spoiler]

I think people will fight to the best of their ability, but your right in the end will be overwhelmed by odds out of their favor. Which is fine, we aren't trying to stop keep takes.

However, I don't think they will give up, I think once the battle appears to be lost, they will simply change their tactics to small scale fights between the keep an warcamps.

Also, I think the AAO buff changes I'm suggesting will help balance the server more. I think the X-realmers will switch sides to the faction that has the AAO buff, because the AAO players will be getting more medals and gear then the over-populated side. I know MANY people on live who switched to play on the side that had AAO.

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The idea of leaving 2 zones unlocked is also interesting combined with the changed I suggested. I think it would play out something like this;

Destro and Order play musical keeps, trading from one zone to another. Players who are interested in killing players and not doors, will get the greatest reward, following the AAO buff (opposing zerg) from zone to zone. This may spread the fighting out a bit more between 2 maps. Players following the AAO buff for both factions will mount small defenses, which may slow the two zergs down. This could make for good pvp or it could simply turn into very little fighting and a lot of door killing.

[dkabib]

What about getting rid of currency medals and emblems?
Those were implemented to keep people playing, but c'mon, farming those is a pain and this is a free server, you don't need to keep people subscribed.

I'm in favor of removing currency from the game and only requiring RR to get it, sell them for 25 silver.
That way we're back into wanting what REALLY matters, that is RR!

[witchking1980]

First of all which realm percentages are acceptable for having a pleasant RvR day in ROR?

50%-50% is ideal and all of us agree.
40%-60% is bearable? I guess so.
30%-70% is code red for the balance? Sure.

If there is someway to monitor the population of the server 24/7 specifically into the RvR lakes?

If yes, then dev's could put a simple rule for example if Order is 30% and Destruction is 70% then the 40% of destruction which roams into RvR lakes if they die will become chickens if they try to enter again to the lakes. So, the population into the lakes would be equal 30%-30%, the biggest gain is that the players who x-realm will know that if they try to go to the winning side they will probably waste their time because dead=chicken. So, the zerg will fade out.

Probably it is not realistic but since we are making a discussion every idea is somewhat useful no matter how bad it is.

[Scottx125]

People will give up if they don't see a way of winning, no matter how great the rewards are.[/spoiler]

I think people will fight to the best of their ability, but your right in the end will be overwhelmed by odds out of their favor. Which is fine, we aren't trying to stop keep takes.

However, I don't think they will give up, I think once the battle appears to be lost, they will simply change their tactics to small scale fights between the keep an warcamps.

Also, I think the AAO buff changes I'm suggesting will help balance the server more. I think the X-realmers will switch sides to the faction that has the AAO buff, because the AAO players will be getting more medals and gear then the over-populated side. I know MANY people on live who switched to play on the side that had AAO.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The idea of leaving 2 zones unlocked is also interesting combined with the changed I suggested. I think it would play out something like this;

Destro and Order play musical keeps, trading from one zone to another. Players who are interested in killing players and not doors, will get the greatest reward, following the AAO buff (opposing zerg) from zone to zone. This may spread the fighting out a bit more between 2 maps. Players following the AAO buff for both factions will mount small defenses, which may slow the two zergs down. This could make for good pvp or it could simply turn into very little fighting and a lot of door killing.

Your idea of people fighting to the end is noble, but not true. If one side is heavily outnumbered and has no chance of winning, people will leave until nobody is left to fight. You have to give people realistic odds of winning to even have a hope that they will stay and fight. However there is an alternative, rewarding both failures and victories, if you reward people who are victorious generously, then they will continue to try and win, equally you have to reward players who failed to achieve victory for putting in so much effort, enough so they feel that the effort was worth it, yet less than the reward victorious players get to make them aim for victory.

So to summaries here are the problems, players need a good enough or equal chance of winning, lets say 40% chance of victory minimum. Players also need to feel they are rewarded for the effort they put into winning, regardless of if they win or not, yet ensure that the losing side do not receive as much reward as the winners to make them not care about winning, yet not so little as to make them think its not worth fighting if they are going to lose.

First of all which realm percentages are acceptable for having a pleasant RvR day in ROR?

50%-50% is ideal and all of us agree.
40%-60% is bearable? I guess so.
30%-70% is code red for the balance? Sure.

If there is someway to monitor the population of the server 24/7 specifically into the RvR lakes?

If yes, then dev's could put a simple rule for example if Order is 30% and Destruction is 70% then the 40% of destruction which roams into RvR lakes if they die will become chickens if they try to enter again to the lakes. So, the population into the lakes would be equal 30%-30%, the biggest gain is that the players who x-realm will know that if they try to go to the winning side they will probably waste their time because dead=chicken. So, the zerg will fade out.

Probably it is not realistic but since we are making a discussion every idea is somewhat useful no matter how bad it is.

50-50 is ideal, 40-60 is the limit, beyond that one side can easily get steamrolled through many factors, such as one side having better gear, one side having better leadership ect. Below 40% chance of victory, nobody will fight, I sure as hell would not unless I was rewarded for my effort in an attempt to win.

[Azuzu]

What about getting rid of currency medals and emblems?
Those were implemented to keep people playing, but c'mon, farming those is a pain and this is a free server, you don't need to keep people subscribed.

I'm in favor of removing currency from the game and only requiring RR to get it, sell them for 25 silver.
That way we're back into wanting what REALLY matters, that is RR!

I personally would love this, because I hate grinding. I just want to pvp and get into fun fights. This would make for a lot less grinding for people like me.

However, I understand the reason not to do this and that's because this is an MMO. Growing your character (character) progression is a huge part of the genre. The medal grind allows people to grow their character and continue to get better at a slow pace.

Lots of people playing here are already the high enough renown to wear the gear. So they would be done, no more progression for them.

Also, this would create a power creep, where established players can drop 2 gold and have the best gear compared to those just coming up in renown ranks.

[dkabib]

What about getting rid of currency medals and emblems?
Those were implemented to keep people playing, but c'mon, farming those is a pain and this is a free server, you don't need to keep people subscribed.

I'm in favor of removing currency from the game and only requiring RR to get it, sell them for 25 silver.
That way we're back into wanting what REALLY matters, that is RR!

I personally would love this, because I hate grinding. I just want to pvp and get into fun fights. This would make for a lot less grinding for people like me.

However, I understand the reason not to do this and that's because this is an MMO. Growing your character (character) progression is a huge part of the genre. The medal grind allows people to grow their character and continue to get better at a slow pace.

Lots of people playing here are already the high enough renown to wear the gear. So they would be done, no more progression for them.

Also, this would create a power creep, where established players can drop 2 gold and have the best gear compared to those just coming up in renown ranks.

Make that when upping the level cap. Or when (if) there´s a wipe for T4.
RR 80 won't be easy to get so farming RR for me is more than enough. Make weapons require RR only too. Farming medals isn't fun and creates more problems than solutions.

[Scottx125]

What about getting rid of currency medals and emblems?
Those were implemented to keep people playing, but c'mon, farming those is a pain and this is a free server, you don't need to keep people subscribed.

I'm in favor of removing currency from the game and only requiring RR to get it, sell them for 25 silver.
That way we're back into wanting what REALLY matters, that is RR!

I personally would love this, because I hate grinding. I just want to pvp and get into fun fights. This would make for a lot less grinding for people like me.

However, I understand the reason not to do this and that's because this is an MMO. Growing your character (character) progression is a huge part of the genre. The medal grind allows people to grow their character and continue to get better at a slow pace.

Lots of people playing here are already the high enough renown to wear the gear. So they would be done, no more progression for them.

Also, this would create a power creep, where established players can drop 2 gold and have the best gear compared to those just coming up in renown ranks.

The grind is what keeps people around, if everyone got what they wanted quickly and easily, they would play for a few weeks maybe a month, and then would leave. Grinding is an MMO's way of keeping you busy, regardless of if it is fun or not, but usually MMO's hang a tasty carrot at the end of a stick to encourage you to plow through the grind to get to the carrot.

[Azuzu]

Your idea of people fighting to the end is noble, but not true. If one side is heavily outnumbered and has no chance of winning, people will leave until nobody is left to fight. You have to give people realistic odds of winning to even have a hope that they will stay and fight. However there is an alternative, rewarding both failures and victories, if you reward people who are victorious generously, then they will continue to try and win, equally you have to reward players who failed to achieve victory for putting in so much effort, enough so they feel that the effort was worth it, yet less than the reward victorious players get to make them aim for victory.

So to summaries here are the problems, players need a good enough or equal chance of winning, lets say 40% chance of victory minimum. Players also need to feel they are rewarded for the effort they put into winning, regardless of if they win or not, yet ensure that the losing side do not receive as much reward as the winners to make them not care about winning, yet not so little as to make them think its not worth fighting if they are going to lose.

People fight for rewards (the majority of them), it's the same reason people spent 10 hours taking empty keeps....it wasn't because it's fun.

In the system I'm suggesting, those defending, clipping the zerg and ganking will get MORE rewards then those taking the keep. 3 killed players with 400% AAO would give up to 6 medals vs 5 from afking a keep.

I like your idea tho! You could give the losers a mini flip, 2 medals vs 5.

So the defenders would walk away with MORE rewards with a losers flip plus increased drop rates/numbers from AAO.

The grind is what keeps people around, if everyone got what they wanted quickly and easily, they would play for a few weeks maybe a month, and then would leave. Grinding is an MMO's way of keeping you busy, regardless of if it is fun or not, but usually MMO's hang a tasty carrot at the end of a stick to encourage you to plow through the grind to get to the carrot.

I agree, I personally would like to see it gone, but I don't think it's the right thing to do getting rid of it.