[Magus, Engineer] Buff like in never released patch 1.4.9

[Glorian]

@chsuan:

I agree on your points as they can be boiled down to:
Engineer and magus need their pets on themselves to be good. If I met enemies in sc or rvr i lose 3 secs to have my turret out. If I dont have it I die.

And if the action goes forward or backwards I have allways to resummon him. After 3 seconds casttime either I'm dead or they have run out of range.

This brings me to the topic of this thread.

Please activate turret/ demon casting on the move so that the engie/magus can keep up running and speed in rvr and SCs.

[Zxul]

armor buff + tough tactic = tank

lol k

3.9 k armor/800 toughness/ orange resists/ full TB= tank

thats not what it means to be a tank

Then read what I actually posted- "has a secondary tools that fit the other two roles". Did you see me posting about magus providing guard?

[Chsuan]

armor buff + tough tactic = tank

lol k

3.9 k armor/800 toughness/ orange resists/ full TB= tank

Which can be achieved on any class in the game....

There are so many flaws in your argument for why magus is a tank class (or should be played as a tank class)
Firstly you mention magus armor buff, the same armor buff everybody in the game gets... it's called armor potion, they don't stack.

Secondly you mention toughness tactic, but you don't mention under what circumstances it gives toughness. You need to have your pet summoned to give you the toughness and let me tell you something about rift spec magus (thats where you find the toughness tactic at the very top) When you rift 6 people in to you, you want them to stay there so you blow up your deamon to knock them down for 3 sec. Yes the very same demon that you need to be alive to give you the toughness that you wasted a tactic for. This is why i've never heard of anyone using the tactic.

Thirdly you mention chaos race absorb tactic that all chaos classes gets but nobody uses because in high tiers the absorb shield is so low it's not even noticable, think its something like 262 in t4 (not 100% sure that chosen get it)
Which you get in lvl 11 and use becuase you don't have anything else to choose between but you change it out as soon as you can because it's utterly useless in most cases (usually used for marauders when PvE farming, and might be used in t1-t2 by zealot until they get better options.) Also i think dwarf race tactic is armor or some kind of resistance, i guess by your logic slayers are tanks.

Fourthly the only thing here that you mentioned that is not completely useless. The magus selfheal from rift spec. It's a pretty neat ability if you are specced for it, think it heals something along the lines of 2k in t4, nothing incredible but decent spell that has saved me a couple of times. Still does not make it a tank class because it has a MEH heal every 60 seconds.

Sorry in advance for any grammatical errors typed this in a hurry.

[Zxul]

And to clarify it some more- its a choice- whatever the class has the beast possible tools for a specific role, and no tools for others, or more average tools for a specific role but secondary tools for others.

The groups will always want the class with best possible tools for the job- why choosing magus when sorc does single target/aoe better?

There is no way to change it- if you add to magus the sorc dps, then why would anybody want to play a sorc? From other hand, give sorc magus's secondary tools- and why would anybody want to play magus?

[Zxul]

Ahh well.

Which can be achieved on any class in the game....

There are so many flaws in your argument for why magus is a tank class (or should be played as a tank class)
Firstly you mention magus armor buff, the same armor buff everybody in the game gets... it's called armor potion, they don't stack.

Its a bug- they did stuck on live, and intentionally so. Great way to show how much you are actually familiar with the class.

Secondly you mention toughness tactic, but you don't mention under what circumstances it gives toughness. You need to have your pet summoned to give you the toughness and let me tell you something about rift spec magus (thats where you find the toughness tactic at the very top) When you rift 6 people in to you, you want them to stay there so you blow up your deamon to knock them down for 3 sec. Yes the very same demon that you need to be alive to give you the toughness that you wasted a tactic for. This is why i've never heard of anyone using the tactic.

And since I played t4 Daemonology magus without Rift, read above how this tactic is actually used.

Thirdly you mention chaos race absorb tactic that all chaos classes gets but nobody uses because in high tiers the absorb shield is so low it's not even noticable, think its something like 262 in t4 (not 100% sure that chosen get it)
Which you get in lvl 11 and use becuase you don't have anything else to choose between but you change it out as soon as you can because it's utterly useless in most cases (usually used for marauders when PvE farming, and might be used in t1-t2 by zealot until they get better options.) Also i think dwarf race tactic is armor or some kind of resistance, i guess by your logic slayers are tanks.

It was 350 or so at t4, at 3 sec CD- so yes, on a tanky toons it is very noticeable. To compare, to get you a 140 points regen at think it was 4 sec from RR, would take 45 RR points.

Fourthly the only thing here that you mentioned that is not completely useless. The magus selfheal from rift spec. It's a pretty neat ability if you are specced for it, think it heals something along the lines of 2k in t4, nothing incredible but decent spell that has saved me a couple of times. Still does not make it a tank class because it has a MEH heal every 60 seconds.

[/quote]

2.3 k actually. And in addition it provides magus with a very nice dmg shield. And in addition, it is combined with high mitigation/absorb tactic.

Anyway, so looking above, you are really not familiar with magus abilities in t4 are you.

[foof]

Ahh well. As somebody who had a t4 magus and loved it there, here are my 2 cents.

Biggest problem with magus is not magus- its the people which are trying to play a class with toughness tactic/armor buff/absorb tactic/self heal as a sorc.

On my t4 magus, going all out with armor talis/toughness, I had 3.9 k or so armor/800 sh toughness/orange resists/ full TB- more defense then quite a few dps tanks. In addition, I had a very nice racial absorb tactic, as well as 2.3 k or so heal on 1 min CD (Aegis of Orange Fire).

I would start from distance with all the instacast dots, then get close and finish targets with Havoc heavy nukes, cast with 50% cast time (because of Close Quarters tactic).

I regularly took on 2-3 order, including many times of higher lvls, and killed them just fine.

There is no problem with the class- problem is with people who try to play class with every possible tank mage tool as a glass cannon. I rerolled from t4 sorc to magus- and never regretted the decision.

You act like you were some sort of special case or had some special build. You didn't.

I had a RR95 Magus... and it is a terrible class. I've tried every single build possible, every gear set up, etc... Every playstyle possible.

That doesn't mean you can't do decently versus terrible opposition. Wow, you took on 2-3 bad orders! Great. I've taken out 5-7, easily, because they were low RRs who didn't know what they were doing. A high RR player who knows what they are doing can do that on any class, it has nothing specifically to do with the Magus.

Your argument is based completely on anecdotal evidence, which is why it isn't very valid. The old "well I did pretty good on my class so its balanced!" argument is one of the oldest in the book when it comes to class balance in MMOs. It's also one of the worst arguments as well.

A defensively specced Magus like that was in all honestly, a fairly terrible pullbot build. I know, I played it extensively. And against any decent opposition who had healers who actually had a brain in their head, you did nothing but tickle them and their allies, whist putting yourself in easy reach of all their RDPS and melee train if they so wanted to kill you (as you know, you were using CQ).

The reason a defensively specced Magus doesn't get killed much isn't because hes tanky. Its because anyone decent will ignore you, kill everyone else, and not be bothered to deal with you unless they really feel like it. Outside of pull and stagger, you are not a threat whatsoever. Why waste time focusing on a completely non-threatening class who stacked themselves up defensively?

Yes, you don't play the Magus like a Sorc, or for that matter, a SH, or any other class. You don't play any class like another class, because it's not that class. Obviously, that doesn't make the class good. Your frame of reference for what was "good" seems to be severely lacking.

It is true that if you want to solo 100% of the time, the Magus doesn't have to deal with backlash, not making you so fragile as a Sorc. Great! That's also the same solo potential as every non backlash career in the game. The Magus solo was actually terrible, and would lose to 90% of equally skilled and geared opponents. Although I bash anecdotal evidence, I suppose I will use some just to illustrate this point. Before I quit, I used to spend most of my time in WAR dueling other high RR players. The Magus was and still is, a garbage 1 on 1 class. That being said, caring about 1v1 is pointless in this game and it isn't balanced around it, but Magus/Engie are some of the worst 1v1 classes (and they are definitely, the worst classes in the game, by far).

You act like any RDPS couldn't do the majority of what you can, and also have their own survivability perks (like Squigs, who can kite a billion times better than a Magus could). Any RDPS can eat an armor pot, stack toughness and armor, and run around being slightly harder to kill whilst doing pretty poor damage. This doesn't make the Magus/Engie good classes because they can do it too.

If an RDPS isn't doing good damage (a damage archetype), then they need to bring a significant amount of utility/CC to the table. Simply put, the Magus/Engineer don't have what they need to compensate for their bad damage. The class falls into the generic "jack of all trades, master of none" stereotype, and in this game, that isn't good for a class that isn't a DPS healer, because a DPS healer compared to a Magus or Engie, had even greater solo/small skirmish survivabiltiy if they geared for it, and in a lot of cases, better damage and better utility/CC.


On the topic of the pet mechanic: Yes, it's bad. Yes letting cast on the move will make it better, no, that won't fix these classes. They need much more than that.

[foof]

There is no way to change it- if you add to magus the sorc dps, then why would anybody want to play a sorc? From other hand, give sorc magus's secondary tools- and why would anybody want to play magus?

There are plenty of ways to change it without giving Magus/Engie Sorc/BW level DPS. Obviously giving them Sorc/BW level DPS is a bad idea. What they always needed was more utility and/or CC.

For instance, the BW having a healing debuff and the Engie not is braindead class design. Yes, lets give the healing debuff to the high damage RDPS and not to the medium damage RDPS. /facepalm

[Zxul]

I had a RR95 Magus... and it is a terrible class. I've tried every single build possible, every gear set up, etc... Every playstyle possible.

That doesn't mean you can't do decently versus terrible opposition. Wow, you took on 2-3 bad orders! Great. I've taken out 5-7, easily, because they were low RRs who didn't know what they were doing. A high RR player who knows what they are doing can do that on any class, it has nothing specifically to do with the Magus.

Then you didn't played it right. And no, I'm not talking about low RR order, I'm talking about same/higher RR.

A defensively specced Magus like that was in all honestly, a fairly terrible pullbot build. I know, I played it extensively. And against any decent opposition who had healers who actually had a brain in their head, you did nothing but tickle them and their allies, whist putting yourself in easy reach of all their RDPS and melee train if they so wanted to kill you (as you know, you were using CQ).

Did you read the part about solo roaming spec- which class do you think can solo premades?

The reason a defensively specced Magus doesn't get killed much isn't because hes tanky. Its because anyone decent will ignore you, kill everyone else, and not be bothered to deal with you unless they really feel like it. Outside of pull and stagger, you are not a threat whatsoever. Why waste time focusing on a completely non-threatening class who stacked themselves up defensively?

And here I thought that mitigating 70%+ of inc dmg, in addition to absorb/self heal, had something to do with it.

Yes, you don't play the Magus like a Sorc, or for that matter, a SH, or any other class. You don't play any class like another class, because it's not that class. Obviously, that doesn't make the class good. Your frame of reference for what was "good" seems to be severely lacking.

If I solo roam, and if running solo into most other classes, or 2-3 of other classes, means they die, then yes I consider the class to be good :p

It is true that if you want to solo 100% of the time, the Magus doesn't have to deal with backlash, not making you so fragile as a Sorc. Great! That's also the same solo potential as every non backlash career in the game. The Magus solo was actually terrible, and would lose to 90% of equally skilled and geared opponents. Although I bash anecdotal evidence, I suppose I will use some just to illustrate this point. Before I quit, I used to spend most of my time in WAR dueling other high RR players. The Magus was and still is, a garbage 1 on 1 class. That being said, caring about 1v1 is pointless in this game and it isn't balanced around it, but Magus/Engie are some of the worst 1v1 classes (and they are definitely, the worst classes in the game, by far).

Then again, if you actually managed to lose to 90% of equally skilled and geared opponents, you have no idea how to play the class correctly.

You act like any RDPS couldn't do the majority of what you can, and also have their own survivability perks (like Squigs, who can kite a billion times better than a Magus could). Any RDPS can eat an armor pot, stack toughness and armor, and run around being slightly harder to kill whilst doing pretty poor damage. This doesn't make the Magus/Engie good classes because they can do it too.

And read above- not every rdps has armor self buff (that did stuck with pot on live), toughness tactic, absorb tactic, and self heal. Actually, only magus has all of those.

If an RDPS isn't doing good damage (a damage archetype), then they need to bring a significant amount of utility/CC to the table. Simply put, the Magus/Engineer don't have what they need to compensate for their bad damage. The class falls into the generic "jack of all trades, master of none" stereotype, and in this game, that isn't good for a class that isn't a DPS healer, because a DPS healer compared to a Magus or Engie, had even greater solo/small skirmish survivabiltiy if they geared for it, and in a lot of cases, better damage and better utility/CC.

Since I have (and had on live) both dps dok and dps zealot, let me enlighten this point some.

A dps zealot won't have nearly the armor/toughness of solo spec magus. Actually, it is much better fit to be a glass cannon (there was a reason why quite a few rr90+ premades were on lookout for dps zealots who knew how to gear/play the spec, and why I saw in city/scs dps zealots being top at dmg quite a few times).

A dps dok won't have the range of magus- having much harder time with kiters. Neither will he have a better dmg- unless you feel like going full str build, with no mitigation to speak of/no heals except Rend.

And before you comment on this one, yes I do play a dps dok atime, and yes I had quite a few whs/wls and such complaining to me how OP dok is after running into mine- including at least one of the posters in this tread.

[foof]

So lets go with the Magus here:

Here's a list of the Maguses utility/CC

A 3 second disarm with a 2 second cast time and a 30 second cooldown.
A very small knockback with a 1 second cast time, 10 second cooldown, 65 ft range.
An AoE interrupt, 1 second cast time, 10 second cooldown, 65 ft range.
A 3 second stagger (wow a joke), landmine. 15 second cooldown.
Rift! Something good and unique!
A group corp resist buff.
A terrible melee range snare.
A 3 second Kd based around pet, that requires you to kill your mechanic and have to resummon it.
The AoE stagger removal (which is more or less useless now that staggers got dura nerfed).
The generic RDPS AoE root.
A 15% single target damage increase tactic for all who focus on that target.
An ally AP regen tactic based on turret distance.

And heres the Sorcs:

A ranged snare with a 2 second cast time, 10 second cooldown. - Better than Magus
A 3 second disarm, 1 second cast time, 30 second cooldown, and isn't specced like the Magus - Better than Magus
Same AoE root.
Group aoE damage proc buff.
Willpower debuff.
Group thorns buff.
Ap drain debuff.
3 second Aoe silence - instant cast, 30 sec cooldown.
Aoe initiative debuff.
A tactic that causes some spells to drain AP, debuff strength, ballistic, and intelligence.
A 10% group AoE damage tactic.
A tactic that causes the majority of your AoE skill to knockback.
A group absorb shield tactic.

And the Sorc is known for having pretty bad utility/CC in comparison to the BW (the BW/Engie comparison is even worse for the Engie).

The fact of the matter is, even if the Magus/Engie utility/CC is slightly better than the BW/Sorcs, it doesn't make up for their significantly less damage. This is why these careers are not balanced and will never be balanced. They need roughly the same amount more utility/CC as they have less damage. If the Magus does 70% of the damage of a Sorc, the Sorc should have 70% of the CC/Utility. As it stands, the Sorc actually beats the Magus in a lot of utility/CC departments (snares, knockbacks, disarms, silences), and the things that the Magus have over the sorc (outside of Rift), aren't really that good. A heavily nerfed stagger that lasts 3 seconds! An AoE knockdown that requires you to blow up your mechanic, and either have prior turret positioning or basically only being usable as a PBAOE (and if you don't have a turret out, have fun getting that off), etc...

Everyone knows that the Sorc/BW are leagues ahead of the Magus/Engie in damage. The problem then is, the Magus/Engie aren't leagues ahead in utility. That is the crux of the problem when it comes to balancing these archetypes.

[foof]

Telling me I "didn't know what I was doing", instantly means you've lost the argument. You need to debate points, not try to use ad-hominem logical fallacies to discredit the person you are debating.

I sure as hell knew what I was doing, and I'm sure as hell I was, and still am, a better player than you. Your posts are pure anecdotal garbage that use no evidence to back themselves up.

So, because you wan't to debate in this brain-dead style, what was the name and RR of your Magus and server you played on since you were "so good". I knew almost every good Magus who played this game, and I'm positive you weren't one of them. But please, keep tooting your own horn while looking like a complete fool who couldn't find a point on a knife.

And trying to imply that the Magus/Engie wouldn't lose 90% of duels in a RR90+ environment instantly proves to me that you've never experienced that. When you duel the best players on your server, you would know that the class is horrible in 1v1. As you are trying to imply that "I didn't know what I was doing", I'm going to directly imply that 'YOU'VE NEVER DONE IT". Period.

And saying you can roam around and beat RR25 people is really important to this discussion. Really proves your point man.

You're argument in all honestly boils down to a very simple concept based completely on anecdotal evidence:

I DID GOOD ON MAH MAGUS HUURRR DUURRR CLASS IS GOOD HURR DURR I AM SPECIAL HAD SPECIAL SPEC SO GOOD HURR DURRR.

Please, just stop posting for everyones sake.