Repel Blasphemy

[Uchoo]

I'm trying to remember any serious WH vs WE duels from live, what I came up with is that whoever got the knockdown out of stealth won most of the time. That's my memory.

So I asked some friends who played very high level WH and WE. They said that any WE worth it's salt won most 1v1s against RB because they were either Severing RB or kiting with WB dagger throws.

So I guess that's a little perspective but WH and WE were the only classes that I didn't really spend any time on.

RB was definitely useful at a certain point in the meta-game, mostly in 1v1's or ganking solo, but I really don't remember anyone playing anything but EW at the end, and many played that in groups while RB was meta-relevant, too.

[thullonse]

The only reason why WH>WE......the hats...those sexy hats.

Bikinis > Hats

longcoats > hats > bikinis.

[mursie]

The "appealing to greater design" argument never works, for numerous reasons:

- We're interested in abilities that are useful in any PvP, and the White Lion alone tells us that Mythic didn't design every ability they created around PvP

Why are you interested only in "any pvp" abilities. Do you not believe that this game has other facets to it? How do you explain quests/PQ's/dungeons/duels/large scale rvr. These exist in game and point to the fact that more than just 6v6 combat mechanics must be addressed. Yes - some abilities were made for PVE, some PVP, some for aoe, some for single target.

- Even if Mythic were considering PvP, coming up with unique concepts for so many skills is difficult - let alone ensuring they all synergize or are even useful

I agree - unique abilities creates balance difficulties. But, many minds went into building this game...and this is not the original patch version of WaR we are now playing (meaning many post launch iterations of the game are already included in the package we play). The assumption that only group play matters (and more importantly - only 6 man group play at that), I believe is flawed... as this represents only a portion of the game.


- Game developers seldom, if not never, create a perfect set of skills which are balanced and useful when the game is played as well as it possibly can be, even if they are actually trying to - which we can safely say that Mythic weren't

Again - from what perspective do you make this generalization of Mythic. If the intention was to duel a dok -I think some of the abilities in the Witch Hunter's confession tree are very plausible. Dueling does exist. It has been and will continue to be a part of the game. You can even duel internally within your faction. The game is an expansive universe with things not solely dedicated to 6v6 play. If you only approach the game from that perspective, what other facets of the game are you now potentially diminishing or destroying?

That said, the point being made about the Confession tree is that it sucks at everything. Its entire principle makes no sense if the WH is the platform for it. Why the hell does a WH want AoE skills?

I do not believe it sucks (it has utility for certain counters within the game) - unless of course you are approaching from only one perspective. I believe there are more perspectives to consider.

[Uchoo]

Regarding what you said, Azarael, I'm quite glad that WH's have an option for aoe. While they are definitely not the best platform to deliver aoe, especially with how that tree works, at least they have the option.

What if you are aoe grinding mobs? What if you want to tag as much as possible in large scale fighting? What if you want to apply your bullet debuff to multiple targets?

I understand that the WH and specifically, that tree, aren't very good, but at least they have AoE options. As I recall, they have none otherwise.

[Jaycub]

Regarding what you said, Azarael, I'm quite glad that WH's have an option for aoe. While they are definitely not the best platform to deliver aoe, especially with how that tree works, at least they have the option.

What if you are aoe grinding mobs? What if you want to tag as much as possible in large scale fighting? What if you want to apply your bullet debuff to multiple targets?

I understand that the WH and specifically, that tree, aren't very good, but at least they have AoE options. As I recall, they have none otherwise.

In PvP at least, how you build your character/role always has to be weighed against your other options, both within your class and against other classes that can fill that role.

Dragon gun is just a bad ability, 10 sec CD is just terrible, the damage sucks, and the debuffs from bullets that you can be placing are pretty gimmicky/meh. A slayer rolling his face on the keyboard in shatter limbs spec will perform that roll 9001x better than a dragon gun WH could ever in a million years hope to achieve.

Even if dragon gun did 50% more damage, and had no cooldown, AND bullets had no GCD tied to them... the dragon gun spec WH still fails to perform on the same plane of existence as a bomb slayer/BW.

[mursie]

Regarding what you said, Azarael, I'm quite glad that WH's have an option for aoe. While they are definitely not the best platform to deliver aoe, especially with how that tree works, at least they have the option.

What if you are aoe grinding mobs? What if you want to tag as much as possible in large scale fighting? What if you want to apply your bullet debuff to multiple targets?

I understand that the WH and specifically, that tree, aren't very good, but at least they have AoE options. As I recall, they have none otherwise.

In PvP at least, how you build your character/role always has to be weighed against your other options, both within your class and against other classes that can fill that role.

Dragon gun is just a bad ability, 10 sec CD is just terrible, the damage sucks, and the debuffs from bullets that you can be placing are pretty gimmicky/meh. A slayer rolling his face on the keyboard in shatter limbs spec will perform that roll 9001x better than a dragon gun WH could ever in a million years hope to achieve.

Even if dragon gun did 50% more damage, and had no cooldown, AND bullets had no GCD tied to them... the dragon gun spec WH still fails to perform on the same plane of existence as a bomb slayer/BW.

You have fallen into the trap - Uchoo has already explained a real pvp encounter where it has usefulness. But the perspective you chose to view it from (group play where a slayer does it better) has clouded your judgement and given you only the ability to deem it worthless.

As a witch hunter in large scale realm v. realm warband fights - newly minted to T3 and looking for influence gain... do you think that tagging people with your aoe options is better or worse than sitting idle in the keep twiddling thumbs? Please understand - I do not at all claim dragon gun to be a better spec than other wh specs. Again - perspective. What are you doing? What are you trying to achieve?

If we only want to play 6v6... the choices really become simple.

the classes and specs begin to shrink - the options begin to converge.... but that is not the only thing in this game.

Or is it........?

[Jaycub]

WH is going to get more inf either soloing, or running in a group as a ST dps in ORvR, not sitting a keep spamming dragon gun for tags. Regardless lowbies are going to get a good portion of their inf from caps.

The game is built around 6 man groups, if you want to succeed in this game you need to have that constantly in the back of your mind. Even in large scale fights every person in a warband is still part of a 6 man and many of their abilities and mechanics are based around a 6 man party. It's crucial to have a good balanced group.

[mursie]

WH is going to get more inf either soloing
The game is built around 6 man groups,
Even in large scale fights every person in a warband is still part of a 6 man and many of their abilities and mechanics are based around a 6 man party.

Your own sentences contradict one another. There are many witch hunters that have made huge strides towards full dev doing nothing but solo ganking in rvr with aao. This is solo play - no group required

In large scale fights, when you join a warband... does the game ensure your party has heals and tanks? Are there abilities in game to provide a level of self adequacy to dps (furious chop / absorb vitality / etc...)

Why do these exist - if group play is crucial... and clearly a healer can heal better than a dps can...why give dps healing abilities?

I'm asking you to please do just one thing. Open your mind - the game is not just group play.

With that said - if you choose to participate in small scale group play, I agree that having a group helps

[Jaycub]

I'm not saying you can't be successful as a solo WH, but you will always do better as a WH in a 6 man with 2 healers and guard. The amount of things you are allowed to do/take on become much greater in that setting. Solo can be very hit or miss, and is very class dependent as well.

Having healing abilities on a DPS class is just that much more survivability and ability to deal with different situations. But take for instance sanctified bullets for WH... it is awful and never worth the tactic slot unless you are doing solo PvE grinding. But the heal abilities that Choppa/Slayer get can be decent enough in PvP to get you out of a pinch even if you have perfect group setup, not that slayers will ever have a reason to spec out of shatter limbs and ID :^)

[Mez]

I can't believe how well this is going. This thread is some of my best work.