Improving the 2H blackguard playstyle

[Penril]

The 2h KD is the most needed change for prosperity to the inferior 2h playstyle. Anyone who actually plays 2h BG knows this.

These arguments from ignorance from those with little/no experience is extremely unhelpful and distracting. If you do not know what you're talking about, please refrain from derailing the thread from those who are actually playing 2h BG and are actively seeking the major form of improvement (2h KD).

I played a 2H BG on live all the way to rr90. Can i talk now boss?

From a group perspective, i would much rather have a BG with a buffed CD (15%? longer duration?) than a KD. Other classes can take care of the KD instead of the 2H BG (the other tank if running 2 tanks, WE, etc). Any BG that prefers a KD over this is just thinking about 1v1 or solo play.

[Gobtar]

Doen't need to be a Armour debuff, BG already have a good armour debuff, it could be an armour bypass. Bypass stacks with Armour debuff and is better than WS. This is what I have so far:

Selfish BG:
Requirements: 15 hate, Parry, 2hander, 10 CD, Undefendable at 100 hate.
A retaliatory strike that cuts through your foes defences dealing 423 damage allowing your attacks to bypass 50% of their armour for the next 10seconds.

{Reasoning- The armour debuff is good but stagnates as gear gets better and better, BG already has a weaker bypass ability in the Malice tree and no access to WS buff, forces BG to guard to get the proc, practically impossible to trigger if running around the back lines alone]

Requirements: 15 hate, Parry, 2hander, 10 CD, Undefendable at 100 hate.
A retaliatory strike dealing 423 damage and embues you with vindictive power. Attacks directed against this target deal 20% more damage for the next 10 seconds. [make the damage scale with hate?]

{Reasoning strong as part of a melee train, adding to the BGs usefulness as an off tank, forces BG to guard to get the proc, practically impossible to trigger if running around the back lines alone, damage buff like this is always a good incentive to run a twohander and BG doesn't have access to GW mastery like SM, IB, BO}

Working on ideas for party oriented abilities for the BG

Credentials: I had a BG on live and I had an @ post.

[bloodi]

Working on ideas for party oriented abilities for the BG
.

As i said, abilities cant be new, they can only be direct copies of other abilities on the client.

[War]

The 2h KD is the most needed change for prosperity to the inferior 2h playstyle. Anyone who actually plays 2h BG knows this.

These arguments from ignorance from those with little/no experience is extremely unhelpful and distracting. If you do not know what you're talking about, please refrain from derailing the thread from those who are actually playing 2h BG and are actively seeking the major form of improvement (2h KD).

I played a 2H BG on live all the way to rr90. Can i talk now boss?

From a group perspective, i would much rather have a BG with a buffed CD (15%? longer duration?) than a KD. Other classes can take care of the KD instead of the 2H BG (the other tank if running 2 tanks, WE, etc).

Any improvement to CD would be a welcome change, imo.

Any BG that prefers a KD over this is just thinking about 1v1 or solo play.

Nonsense, well placed hard CC is crucial in solo and group play. Especially when destro groups are typically lacking in the KD department compared to order.

[Gobtar]

Working on ideas for party oriented abilities for the BG
.

As i said, abilities cant be new, they can only be direct copies of other abilities on the client.

...well poop....Aza can you confirm this?

[Bretin]

These arguments from ignorance from those with little/no experience is extremely unhelpful and distracting.

i am sure kimy and nanji both lack experience like crazy while mursie and you are the ones with the idea about balance even tho you cant argue properly and/or getting raped argue wise by those ignorant retards with little/no experience.

[Penril]

Nonsense, well placed hard CC is crucial in solo and group play. Especially when destro groups are typically lacking in the KD department compared to order.

Destro only lacks in the KD department if you consider ranged KDs, which is a topic for another discussion.

Here are some classes that can take care of the KD in your group (if you go 2H BG):

- WE (Downfall or OYK spec). However this means the WE doesn't have a inc heal debuff (but in a group, someone else can take care of this)
- Marauder (AoE, although it is better to run Savagery for the debuffs, specially if you want the inc heal debuff)
- Choppa (lasts only 2 seconds though and it drops rage, unless the Choppa uses Wot Rules?)
- Black Orc (however it is better to go full Brawler atm for better stat steal, THC, GS; in T4, it is better to go for AoE snare)
- Chosen (combined with Mixed Defenses it is not a bad spec, but your resist Aura won't be that good and won't have access to stagger)
- Another BG (SnB)

Notice a pattern? All those classes lose something crucial for group play if going for a KD (inc heal debuff, armor debuff, AoE snare, Rage or a tactic slot, Resist Aura and stagger). BG's asking for a 2H KD basically want to keep all their SnB toys while also keeping CD and doing a bit more damage. This is the reason why i suggested that if BGs get their 2H KD, it should require a tactic so they have to actually CHOOSE.

Easier solution: Just buff CD ffs

[War]

These arguments from ignorance from those with little/no experience is extremely unhelpful and distracting.

i am sure kimy and nanji both lack experience like crazy while mursie and you are the ones with the idea about balance even tho you cant argue properly and/or getting raped argue wise by those ignorant retards with little/no experience.

It wasn't directed at anyone in particular. It was said to improve the direction of the thread and discussion as a whole. No need to get your panties in a bunch there tough guy.

EDIT: Mursie is a damn troll btw haha

[War]

[

Notice a pattern? All those classes lose something crucial for group play if going for a KD (inc heal debuff, armor debuff, AoE snare, Rage or a tactic slot, Resist Aura and stagger). BG's asking for a 2H KD basically want to keep all their SnB toys while also keeping CD and doing a bit more damage. This is the reason why i suggested that if BGs get their 2H KD, it should require a tactic so they have to actually CHOOSE.

Easier solution: Just buff CD ffs

The only toy that should be kept is the KD, and it would be weaker at 3 seconds (like the mirror). Requiring a tactic would be absolutely ludicrous. Requiring a 2h, parry, 15 hatred, 2 mastery points AND a tactic slot would be an abject joke compared to the on-demand, low cost, high damage beauty that is Cave-In.

[mursie]

I feel very comfortable that Nanji and I have agreed on my argument points.

This mechanic and key abilites mirroring that was done just made the whole balance process easier.
Like less variables reduce the amount of equations you need to solve a problem.

Agreed - mirroring works and makes things easy. Thx

There is a third way - Partial mirroring. As it was done in WAR. Classes are not a direct mirror but share some similarities. Opens space to make them unique and adapt them to the lore provided by games workshop.
Mirroring is a way to assure balance between the realms (not between the classes though).
Mirrored classes would be the easiest to balance, but do we want that?

On Partial Mirroring -
I'm ok with this approach - but know that partial mirroring was blurring pretty damn close to full-on mirroring towards the end. I agree - having all classes 100% mirrors of one another loses the lore and uniqueness aspect of the game that makes WaR - WaR.

I am not in favor of that. But, I think all can clearly identify the "intended" mirrors of each class between the two factions and I think it is more than appropriate to try and mirror the fundamental aspects of those said mirrored classes

So - if you believe that the KD on the 2handed IB is not fundamental, then I can't argue with you anymore. I find it is..and as such believe it should also be on the 2handed BG.