[SUGGESTION] Magus/Engi Changes for the interim...

[Renork]

Why not just allow the 20% damage buff to persist IF a pet is summoned? Having to constantly resummon the pet to receive the buff was a silly idea.

[Genisaurus]

Even though I'm 100% sure that the tactic change pertaining to these weak classes would not affect gameplay whatsoever in the grand scheme of things; I'm happy that options are being discussed, and appreciate it. Thank you all.

Let me ask you this - what tactic would you give up to take the new Hollow Points? The problem is that the Engi and Magus already have so many good tactics to choose from, that the gain from a new tactic is offset almost completely by having to lose one of the others. It's not a net buff to the physical damage spec, which it needs.

you cant put something like base armor pen/ignore attibute to all rifles in my opinion as that would cause too many problems in lower tiers with WS pen + turrent armor debuff which would make engies even stronger in lower tiers

i much prefer the solution here

1. Lower tiers never mattered for balance, and shouldn't going forward.
2. Armor pen is multiplicative. An Engineer will have a hard time getting past 25% armor pen in T1, and a tank with no armor talis will have mmaybe around 40% mitigation. A 10% armor pen added to rifles wouldn't amount to much in T1, maybe at most a 5% damage buff, but it would be much more valuable in T4 where mitigation rates are higher.

But what is there to look of Engi/magus?

We know their issues, we already pointed them out in the thread, those fixes are a bandaid to help with such issues and also a test to see if they are too few, too much or whatever will it be.

Just for starters, other things not considered in this thread:
1. Sub-par tactics everywhere. This is something every class suffers from, and improving them all isn't a buff (as above, you can only pick 4 anyways), but it is something that needs to be changed.
2. DoT damage is a joke. It's too little damage over too long a time period. Both classes could probably do with both a 10-20% tooltip increase and a 3-6s duration decrease (for fewer but bigger ticks) to make those DoTs noticable.
3. Something Something Turrets.


Anyway, ALL physical RDPS classes have the same problem (SW/SH/EN) - not enough WS on their gear to make their physical attacks remotely comparable to magic damage.

[peterthepan3]

To be honest I'd suggest just making it an inherent bonus to BOC/Snipe, not reliant on a new tactic. Maybe also inherent to FRF/Gun blast - similar to blackguard's armor ignore spammable.
Reduced CD.

[bloodi]

Just for starters, other things not considered in this thread:
1. Sub-par tactics everywhere. This is something every class suffers from, and improving them all isn't a buff (as above, you can only pick 4 anyways), but it is something that needs to be changed.
2. DoT damage is a joke. It's too little damage over too long a time period. Both classes could probably do with both a 10-20% tooltip increase and a 3-6s duration decrease (for fewer but bigger ticks) to make those DoTs noticable.
3. Something Something Turrets.


Anyway, ALL physical RDPS classes have the same problem (SW/SH/EN) - not enough WS on their gear to make their physical attacks remotely comparable to magic damage.

Yeah but this thread was to follow this http://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/ ... 378#p98378

And the point still stands, all rdps are surviving thanks to burst, the builds that work when facing an opposition that is able of cleansing, swapping targets and so on force you to run builds than rely on a small window of burst. Neither magus or engineer is able to do that and unless they are, they will continue to be irrelevant outside grand scale combat.

A flat increase in damage of dots across the board would help engineer way more than magus, thanks to unshakable focus but still, cleanse exists and buffing dots that dok/wp can easily cleanse only makes them even better, which is far for desirable.

The idea of turrets being the key is interesting, something built around the same idea of BW/Sorc where it seems like they kill you instantly but actually the combo started 8 seconds ago can be a good idea, i drop the turret and if you dont detaunt or do something about me, the turret applies a Word of pain/Boiling blood that explodes 5 seconds later and i can combo it with snipe+dot+focused fire+hit shot for a burst window. Except there is no focused fire till 40 but oh well.
I am sure someone can provide a magus equivalent.

Anyway, as i already say, this is based around the game not getting a serious overhaul in things like armor and so on, if that cant be done, something has to be done for magus and engi,

[Bretin]

the 5 second cooldown seems to be fair while i hardly disagree to see a tactic ingame which is basically a mirror of piercing bite for rdps classes. rdps classes got such a edge in open world pvp anyway and it's not like we got TB or insane high armor values like we had on live. magus has an insane burst potential in t4 and engi got his m2. what you will come up with is a second version of fester and that's something the whole community rates as dumb game design.

5 second cd & stagger increase are fine. magus doesn't need a hard buff in t4 and i'm not sure if the engi will need one. imho we should wait out to see what's happening in the endgame before any changes are made to prevent implementing something which will become borderline broken.

i already made a suggestion way back when i played my magus about what things could be changed and the main problem for me is the pet. it's utter garbage since the warhammer pvp is not stationary. increase the attack range to maybe 120-150 feet and increase the range for the % dmg passive to 65 feet. this will allow the magus to profit from his pet and his passive without standing still at one point. the dmg buff is a feature which he can barely use atm outside of keep fights. also you could decrease the general CD for pets to 5 seconds cause he hardly relies on the resistance debuff. same counts for engi!

[Halhammer]

Certainly open to the changes that have been proposed here, but to be honest I'm doin fine on my engi at this stage, as rifle specced. It's a matter of pickin the right targets imo, so I go for squishies cos I got fuk all armour pen, stacked BAL and crits instead. Sure, if you keep poundin on S+B tanks and DoKs they'll just laugh back at ya but that's no game mechanic problem, that's stupid target choice.

[peterthepan3]

Again, I reiterate - these 'I'm doing fine etcetc at THIS stage' do not negate from the fact that Engi/Magus need some buffs.

ANYONE can be doing fine with ANYTHING. That doesn't mean the class as a whole doesn't need some love.
While you think you're being effective as an engi other than rifting, you're merely doing something a SW/BW/DPS AM can do 2x better.

Bolt of Change and Snipe should be as effective as Festering Arrow/other 3 second casts - that's just it. Whether its given more damage, a critical chance, or some resistance avoidance i don't mind.
They could do good burst, but this was with the aid of certain 100RR gear/LOTD stuff. Outside of that, the burst they could do still paled in comparison - and took about 5/6 different things to be going in your favour for it to pull off - to other DPS.

[Halhammer]

Again, I reiterate - these 'I'm doing fine etcetc at THIS stage' do not negate from the fact that Engi/Magus need some buffs.

No objections here, although I can hear the cries for nerf already...

ANYONE can be doing fine with ANYTHING.

Yea. No.

While you think you're being effective as an engi other than rifting, you're merely doing something a SW/BW/DPS AM can do 2x better.

Then I'm doin SCs with pretty bad SWs/BWs/DPS AMs on a regular basis... there's a reason why engis/magus dont do as much burst damage as BWs/Sorcs, they trade that off for higher sustainability, which gives em some extra time to do more damage. It requires a different play style.

They could do good burst, but this was with the aid of certain 100RR gear/LOTD stuff.

Sniper specs in T4 just weren't viable, due to ridiculous armour values all over the place. If RR80 and Sov gear are really gonna be the cap in here, that could change a thing or two.

Anyway, roll on those changes...

[peterthepan3]

Sustainability = one armor buff.
If by more damage you mean fluff damage via spamming dots, I agree.
In a good group, the extra 'sustainability' equates to nothing.

[Renork]

Again, I reiterate - these 'I'm doing fine etcetc at THIS stage' do not negate from the fact that Engi/Magus need some buffs.

No objections here, although I can hear the cries for nerf already...

ANYONE can be doing fine with ANYTHING.

Yea. No.

While you think you're being effective as an engi other than rifting, you're merely doing something a SW/BW/DPS AM can do 2x better.

Then I'm doin SCs with pretty bad SWs/BWs/DPS AMs on a regular basis... there's a reason why engis/magus dont do as much burst damage as BWs/Sorcs, they trade that off for higher sustainability, which gives em some extra time to do more damage. It requires a different play style.

They could do good burst, but this was with the aid of certain 100RR gear/LOTD stuff.

Sniper specs in T4 just weren't viable, due to ridiculous armour values all over the place. If RR80 and Sov gear are really gonna be the cap in here, that could change a thing or two.

Anyway, roll on those changes...

higher sustainability? The armor buff helps, but not as much as you think it does sunshine. What else?

Edit: Please don't tell me we need to *hang back* and spam dots.