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[PVP]Scenario balance suggestion

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magter3001
Posts: 1284

Re: [PVP]Scenario balance suggestion

Post#211 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:55 am

mursie wrote:
Spoiler:
magter3001 wrote: The problem though is that those 10% (if that really is the number) will have too long of queues during NA because every pug is going to just join the pug only scenario. You therefore force those 10% to play by themselves (which is more boring than when you play with friends) and likely cause them to quit the game, reducing the population furthermore. ;)

And with the current state you have 90% that would rather apparently solo que
- yet instead they are queing against premades and getting spawn camped pug stomped... you think they aren't quitting the game?

Your argument is crazy. You are worried about 10%... yet the 90% you think will just grin and bear it?

lol
Not everyone out of those "90%" would rather solo queue. Some would love to be in premades and in groups but maybe don't have the guild or time to do so. I also doubt the number is 90% of the population that wants solo queue, otherwise you would see a huge support for this thread while currently it seems like it's 50-50. I haven't met anyone yet who is quiting the game due to premades... not one. I know however of people quiting because of latency and low population, or RL.

I don't think my argument is crazy at all. It's very rational and shows the consequences for making a solo queue only scenario. I don't know why it's in your head that a solo queue will magically fix the NA population. It won't... the problem stems much deeper than some solo queue. You'll please maybe 10% of those 90% you're mentioning while the rest are stuck exactly where they were before except they will be stomped by pugs instead of premades. ;)
Agrot 35/40 Aggychopp 32/40
Grelin of Magnus/Badlands ;)

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mursie
Posts: 674

Re: [PVP]Scenario balance suggestion

Post#212 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:17 am

magter3001 wrote: ....
Not going to argue with you. What you have written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

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magter3001
Posts: 1284

Re: [PVP]Scenario balance suggestion

Post#213 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:36 am

mursie wrote:
magter3001 wrote: ....
Not going to argue with you. What you have written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Just because what I wrote doesn't align with what you want, doesn't mean it's "insanely idiotic". Your idea seems to indicate that a solo queue will fix population, player skill, and premade whine threads... or at least that is what I get from this thread.

I don't understand why you would even consider such a scenario where you and your guild play in premades. If a solo queue scenario is added, you would have to wait 20+ mins for a queue if not more. Heck, the reason I logged off today was because I was waiting for a solo queue for 20+ mins. The argument of premades being the cause of low NA population doesn't add up. Not to mention, it will destroy any NA premades currently playing or who would want to play when you would be forced to solo queue in order to get any pvp action on the server.

Why would anyone want to come to RoR and invite their friends if all they're going to do is play solo queued scenarios? :?
Agrot 35/40 Aggychopp 32/40
Grelin of Magnus/Badlands ;)

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Twyxx
Posts: 932

Re: [PVP]Scenario balance suggestion

Post#214 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:09 am

magter3001 wrote:Just because what I wrote doesn't align with what you want, doesn't mean it's "insanely idiotic". Your idea seems to indicate that a solo queue will fix population, player skill, and premade whine threads... or at least that is what I get from this thread.

I don't understand why you would even consider such a scenario where you and your guild play in premades. If a solo queue scenario is added, you would have to wait 20+ mins for a queue if not more. Heck, the reason I logged off today was because I was waiting for a solo queue for 20+ mins. The argument of premades being the cause of low NA population doesn't add up. Not to mention, it will destroy any NA premades currently playing or who would want to play when you would be forced to solo queue in order to get any pvp action on the server.

Why would anyone want to come to RoR and invite their friends if all they're going to do is play solo queued scenarios? :?
I get the concern about NA times here, seeing as I am a NA player
Spoiler:
(Texas represent!!!)
At the same time, I was just doing scenarios on Order as a healer (at midnight), and this was just one of the results that kept occurring throughout the night. I would rather wait say, 15 minutes for a "fairly balanced" pop than be forced into my spawn. Let's face it, the time I spent sitting around doing nothing could be spent waiting for a more quality scenario. I don't think this is really any pvp action for premades, either, when they're jumping around, anxious for someone to leave the spawn so they can do something. Granted, this was a more far end of the spectrum case, but still.
I think at this point Mursie's suggestions are a reasonable compromise. If this was implemented, we can see how it affects que times, and reverse if necessary. I guess it's just trial and error.
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Scrilian
Posts: 1570

Re: [PVP]Scenario balance suggestion

Post#215 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:47 am

Whoa, I surely missed out on such a heated discussion :D
Can someone cite me the reason behind giving pugs safe-space pug-only scenarios, besides the usual:
"dem pesky premade pubstompers"
"obviously majority wants this"
"giev NA a chance plz"
"screw having groups, prems and sheeet"
"its a pvp game brah"
"mah join solo button"
"fairness and equality for pubbies"
"competitiveness **** yea"
"waiting more will surely solve everything"
"just the tip, it would not hurt, bby"
Вальтер Рыжий RU => Gaziraga BW, Valefar WL, Lovejoy
Retired
ex-Greenfire/Invasion RvR leader
Wonderful RvR music videos ;)

Bretin
Posts: 929

Re: [PVP]Scenario balance suggestion

Post#216 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:27 am

Fulkan wrote: You can boast and talk all you want but a true 6v6 is what I want.
any (human EU) time, any place. can PM me to not derail ;)

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DefinitelyNotWingz
Posts: 286

Re: [PVP]Scenario balance suggestion

Post#217 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:57 am

TenTonHammer wrote:
DefinitelyNotWingz wrote:Tbh I rather farm pugs than having no sc pop at all.
I dont understand why do you want to farm pugs whom after getting pushed back to spawn and realizng they are facing some premade 98% of the time the pug side will just wait in the spawn area and afk till the sc ends because they dont feel like feeding renown , drops or egos you waste their time and yours as 3 or so minutes in your all just standing around waiting for the sc to end.
If you have the choice between waiting and waiting with some kills and rewards. What would you choose?
I is not satisfying but better than nothing.
TenTonHammer wrote:
Shadowgurke wrote:
I agree with NotWingz there. Letting Premades queue for ages just to get a PM vs PM fight is a really good way to kill smaller guilds. You "reward" pugs with faster queues.

If Premades are such a minority then they should not bother people too much anyway, right?
It is so unfortunate that premades would have to wait 10-15 minutes or around that range in exchange for finding the kind of fights that they were looking for, before this premades who scheduled fights together or look for 6v6 matches on the forums would wait perhaps the entire week for the weekend when the opposing premade can get all its members together

compared to that waiting 15-20 minutes or so seems a small price to pay to no get matches where you ho hum face roll the casuals
Waiting is never a small price to pay when you are spending your freetime.
Additionaly it is not waiting 10-15min to find a fight your premade was looking for, premade vs premade results in a stomp very often putting it on the same lvl as farming pugs.
The best fights we ve had were not premade vs premade, it was our premade + pugs vs double premade or 6vs10+.
Cant really matchmake this. It would occur more often though if pugs would be forced to grp up and step up their game.
You know who I am.

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Razid1987
Posts: 1295

Re: [PVP]Scenario balance suggestion

Post#218 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:15 am

As I see it, people are already complaining about too long queue times. This is of course the solo queueing DPSers talking.

There are a few things you can do, depending on whether or not you want to keep the current 2-2-2 system:

- Keep 2-2-2 and don't make any changes:
The queue time stays the same

- Keep 2-2-2 and make some SCs for premades/pugs only:
Even longer queue times for all

- Remove 2-2-2 and don't implement SCs for premades/pugs:
Queue time goes down significantly

- Remove 2-2-2 and implement SCs for premades/pugs:
Queue might (not) stay about the same

- Come up with an alternative to 2-2-2 that doesn't have as long queues + implement of SCs for premades/pugs:
Slightly lower queue time and less QQing?

A little off topic, but I'm actually starting to wonder whether a mirroring system would be better than 2-2-2. I don't mind having 90% DPS, 1 tank and 2 healers in a SC, if only the enemy team has the same ratios. The problem, for me, occurs when they have 4 tanks and 5 healers, and my team doesn't.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [PVP]Scenario balance suggestion

Post#219 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:35 am

mursie wrote:
magter3001 wrote: The problem though is that those 10% (if that really is the number) will have too long of queues during NA because every pug is going to just join the pug only scenario. You therefore force those 10% to play by themselves (which is more boring than when you play with friends) and likely cause them to quit the game, reducing the population furthermore. ;)
And with the current state you have 90% that would rather apparently solo que - yet instead they are queing against premades and getting spawn camped pug stomped... you think they aren't quitting the game?

Your argument is crazy. You are worried about 10%... yet the 90% you think will just grin and bear it?

lol
If people are honestly quitting the game for losing a scenario while queuing solo, that says a lot about them/their mentality.

get a group and l2p. And no, I just respect the enigma/gankbus lot because they're of a similar mindset to us/not so salty.

Tesq: we join scenarios because we like them. We like PvP. We like the CHANCE of coming up against a premade. Also in scenarios like Praag, it's not so premade-dominated. We don't go out with the intent of squashing pugs (recently a few of us have been afk because this is boring). We want a premade vs premade queue - I honestly can't wait for it. Just saying longer queue times aren't really fair, but that's a population issue. Pugs gon'be pugs!
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Scrilian
Posts: 1570

Re: [PVP]Scenario balance suggestion

Post#220 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:39 am

What is the real reason to count and limit and just no to set it free?

What is considered balanced in this game, with its gigantic disproportions on classes with various spec/builds/gear inequalities and approaches to RvR/Scen/Solo combat?


I strongly believe that I'm not the only one in this community, who loves and cherishes WAR and RoR approach to scenarios, with them being a simulation of a random small scale conflict, where it's possible to encounter everything the opposing realm has to offer. From the assumed "balanced" 2-2-2 6mans to a groups of six lvl23 dps-runepriest troll-squads. I already even made quite a few analogies to the Magic Phase of the original Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
And why is "2-2-2" considered balanced, when it's benefits melee trains far more than ranged, that often need an extra rdps just to take down a guarded melee.


Yes, I can say for a fact that its not fun to plough through pugs with a prem all the time with 50 to 0 kills on every scenario and its not fun to grind your teeth for 15min straight against a somewhat evenly matched opponents with just a 1-2 kills here and there in every match.


Luckily the game provides you with random mix experience of both, never leaving you with a boring tired feelings but with memorable moments of battles and wanting to encounter more. Many years since release I continue to encounter things never thought likely or even possible to face. With great, no jokes here, developers on our side one can hope for the game to flourish into a true never-ending hobby-like MMO experience!


Surely sometimes it could get a bit frustrating, especially for new players to get 3shot-K.O.'s while camped at spawn and what now. But facing strong opposition makes you stronger, when you start questioning yourself - how could I have prevented this, what did I use/spec/target wrong, what gear should I strive for, where can I find players like myself to group up and fight back together.


Heck, strong enemy group play should and would inspire to achieve more, just look at the SaltBus and RubMyAss ;) , not to whine at the forums for artificial barriers and class-type-gating nonsense. But at the same time why should not game give the poor pug guy/girl some slack and have a few scens vs a lot of lowbies to kill and have fun, without the option only to queue for this easy way of farming.


Why should it change? Just for the sake of changing like other games in the recent decade and implementing often broken and pale stalemate MM systems?

Or its "serious competition" you are after, then ask the devs if its possible to make a few maps with just "balanced" premades or "prebalanced" soloQ and see how it goes - but no, its always change the whole system and screw others who don't like it :^)
Either way any of those separate queue would be most likely just as much one-sided roftstomp as its now, just the one you would have sit to wait for. And it would eliminate some of most memorable moments of, for example, strong 6man vs a mediocre prem+pugs epic close 499-500 fights with kills going both ways.


If its class representation with some specs rarely seen on the battlefield - then take the "overperforming" ones, and instead of nerfing them with a same amount of cynical narcissism seen in SC thread, the whole "**** you BW", bring the underdogs to their levels. And people would play them more.


This was already stated as the way to go and see the "meta" altered a bit, what ever it means. Don't change want is not broken, definitely not scenario system. Make RoR great, not lol-wow clone! ;)
Вальтер Рыжий RU => Gaziraga BW, Valefar WL, Lovejoy
Retired
ex-Greenfire/Invasion RvR leader
Wonderful RvR music videos ;)

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