[PVP]Scenario balance suggestion

[Idrinth]

From my personal experience the biggest issue PUGs(including me) have is the time to die(NOT time to kill), that is too low for their teammates to react to properly - without voice it is very easy to miss the information needed.

I'm wondering, if a reduction in damage taken might help here - maybe base it on points AND kills and give a bonus to the opposing side's renown. That would at least give pugs more of a fighting chance while premades (or better pugs) would have better fights and rewards.

Reduction in overall damage received will not fix the difference between the simple equation below:
4 players dps on 1 target> 4 players dps on 4 targets.

did an example here
The idea is not to reduce the damage globally, but in response to power differences, to decrease the gap a bit.

This is not meant to make Pugs beat premades in the second try, but is meant to decrease their chances to be steamrolled again and again, giving them a bit more time to react.
It will make the biggest difference with medium skilled players that pug, the least difference with bad players, since in they'd need a 300% damage buff to be a danger.

4 DPS on a target are 400% damage base, assuming they attack the loosing team it could be down to ~280% damage - giving that team at least a fighting chance. I believe that this chance is most of what is needed to get players to try again, it is a way of giving hope to the losing side and a less boring experience for both sides.

[Tklees]

From my personal experience the biggest issue PUGs(including me) have is the time to die(NOT time to kill), that is too low for their teammates to react to properly - without voice it is very easy to miss the information needed.

I'm wondering, if a reduction in damage taken might help here - maybe base it on points AND kills and give a bonus to the opposing side's renown. That would at least give pugs more of a fighting chance while premades (or better pugs) would have better fights and rewards.

Reduction in overall damage received will not fix the difference between the simple equation below:
4 players dps on 1 target> 4 players dps on 4 targets.

did an example here
The idea is not to reduce the damage globally, but in response to power differences, to decrease the gap a bit.

This is not meant to make Pugs beat premades in the second try, but is meant to decrease their chances to be steamrolled again and again, giving them a bit more time to react.
It will make the biggest difference with medium skilled players that pug, the least difference with bad players, since in they'd need a 300% damage buff to be a danger.

4 DPS on a target are 400% damage base, assuming they attack the loosing team it could be down to ~280% damage - giving that team at least a fighting chance. I believe that this chance is most of what is needed to get players to try again, it is a way of giving hope to the losing side and a less boring experience for both sides.

No it won't. Say I am taking 100% more damage from 1 player who is doing 400 normal dps. So thats 800 dps. Now i have guard so its back to 400 dps. I also have a healer who pumps about 2k hps. So I am still sitting at 100% hp.

Now lets look at the pug. He is taking 50% less damage. He has 4 players hitting him at a base of 500 dps x4=2k dps, you most likely don't have guard, your healer is still pumping 2k hps except you are heal debuffed so 1k hps and wait the healer is outgoing heal debuffed. 500hps. 2000 dps>500hps

These numbers are completely off the top of my head and for the most part made up but you should understand my point being that the difference is not solved by damage. Its a lack of coordination that makes pugs v premade fights unbalanced.

[Idrinth]

Again, it's not about solving the issue directly, it is about improving the chances
Taking your example, the player is now hit by half the damage, doublig the time for the pug-tank to react, something in turn increasing his survivability.
And yes, pug tanks do guard, even if they are often pretty bad at it - most of the time they are just too slow.
Similar to that every second that the player lives longer increases the chances of a healer (at least randomly) using a cleanse, because there are too many icons beneath the defensive target or because it's a warrior priest that remembers there is something besides group heal on his bar.

This tiny increase of effective life won't help the worst pugs against the best groups, but that is not the original intention. It will move close fights closer together, something that the majority should be able to notice and appreciate, since they aren't steamrolled as badly.

The lack of coordination is not something we can solve, we can just make it a tiny bit less harsh - longer time to die for the losing side would help there.

[tomato]

Invest time and effort-> you will have success.
Don't do that-> you won't.

There is more or less no game which you can play for 1hour a day + zero effort and be successful.
I don't see why it shouldn't be the case for RoR and I don't get the idea that you should be rewarded for putting zero effort into something.

[Idrinth]

Invest time and effort-> you will have success.
Don't do that-> you won't.

There is more or less no game which you can play for 1hour a day + zero effort and be successful.
I don't see why it shouldn't be the case for RoR and I don't get the idea that you should be rewarded for putting zero effort into something.

would like a clarification, where I propose zero effort

[Tklees]

Again, it's not about solving the issue directly, it is about improving the chances
Taking your example, the player is now hit by half the damage, doublig the time for the pug-tank to react, something in turn increasing his survivability.
And yes, pug tanks do guard, even if they are often pretty bad at it - most of the time they are just too slow.
Similar to that every second that the player lives longer increases the chances of a healer (at least randomly) using a cleanse, because there are too many icons beneath the defensive target or because it's a warrior priest that remembers there is something besides group heal on his bar.

This tiny increase of effective life won't help the worst pugs against the best groups, but that is not the original intention. It will move close fights closer together, something that the majority should be able to notice and appreciate, since they aren't steamrolled as badly.

The lack of coordination is not something we can solve, we can just make it a tiny bit less harsh - longer time to die for the losing side would help there.

my example completely left CC out of the equation. Tank is now punted off of the top of gates of ekrund by a BG or chosen who both now have long punt. No guard. And since we are fighting pugs some SM or Rdps has given us free immunities so you can't counter CC. Your healer is also staggered so you aren't getting healed. Do we really need to keep this going? Damage reduction is not the answer. I am open to a change to increase the state of life for pugs but it isn't damage reduction.

[tomato]

Well zero effort equals for me not looking for a group, but just queuing solo,and to some extent, using only tactics/skills for yourself.

Giving pugs buffs would only discourage groupplay. While you should actually encourage people to play in groups.

And finally, give us caledor woods as 6vs6 sc!

[Scrilian]

caledor woods as 6vs6 sc!

F that, too long to run from the respawn

[Idrinth]

Again, it's not about solving the issue directly, it is about improving the chances
Taking your example, the player is now hit by half the damage, doublig the time for the pug-tank to react, something in turn increasing his survivability.
And yes, pug tanks do guard, even if they are often pretty bad at it - most of the time they are just too slow.
Similar to that every second that the player lives longer increases the chances of a healer (at least randomly) using a cleanse, because there are too many icons beneath the defensive target or because it's a warrior priest that remembers there is something besides group heal on his bar.

This tiny increase of effective life won't help the worst pugs against the best groups, but that is not the original intention. It will move close fights closer together, something that the majority should be able to notice and appreciate, since they aren't steamrolled as badly.

The lack of coordination is not something we can solve, we can just make it a tiny bit less harsh - longer time to die for the losing side would help there.

my example completely left CC out of the equation. Tank is now punted off of the top of gates of ekrund by a BG or chosen who both now have long punt. No guard. And since we are fighting pugs some SM or Rdps has given us free immunities so you can't counter CC. Your healer is also staggered so you aren't getting healed. Do we really need to keep this going? Damage reduction is not the answer. I am open to a change to increase the state of life for pugs but it isn't damage reduction.

Reading your example, it is already a way more active fight than just bursting down a target before any pug could react This would already archieve my goal here.
Damage reduction is not the solution, grouping is, but it's the easiest to adjust in small ways to provide a better balance of the teams and make new groups learn.
They'd be eased in a tiny bit, consider it the difference between getting a cold shower or an ice-bucket-challenge kind of shower.

@tomato
you might want to reread my proposal, it's not buffing pugs, but equalizing groups a bit for better challenges, no matter if pre-build or just pug. Also you'd already need to be losing before any effect is noticeable, so it won't ever give you a victory on it's own.

Regarding queuning solo and not looking for a group, there are three kinds of people usually:
- those that don't know better(would be helped by getting a chance to see weak group play in a pug that lives a bit longer)
- those that noone wants(try getting a group as the worst class of your achetype for example - not always easy)
- those that barely have time for one scenario(they could at least end up with a slightly better one)

The choice of tactics and skills is a comment I can't follow, optimizing your character for something is never zero effort, but it might just be more effective with a pug that dies too quick to be an offensive tank instead of a support one for example. As an example, in a pug a swordmaster on maxed Khaine with next to zero defence has a better chance to gain some rewards than a tanky one, since he could decide to assist and do the needed damage to kill anything at all.

Last but not least, why would it reduce group play, if the weaker group has a chance to learn instead of diing instanly?

[peterthepan3]

Because it would encourage people to carry on with their solo queuing, hoping to rely on an imbalanced buff to help them win and to make up for their inability to form an optimal group.



Seriously. Join/make guilds and groups, people.

"Regarding queuning solo and not looking for a group, there are three kinds of people usually:
- those that don't know better(would be helped by getting a chance to see weak group play in a pug that lives a bit longer)
- those that noone wants(try getting a group as the worst class of your achetype for example - not always easy)
- those that barely have time for one scenario(they could at least end up with a slightly better one)"

1) There will always be people that don't know any better. These people could do with some visual help/information (the screenies when zoning should be changed, or updates on the forum). However, if people just participate in the forums a bit more (THE SERVER'S FORUM) they'd find most of their queries answered.
2) That's why you make friends and make a guild! Or you make the group. My main is a Magus and I get into groups when we roam scens etc. It IS harder if you're a worse class, but not impossible. You could simply make another class too (I have several because of aforementioned reasons)
3) If you barely have time for one scenario, then I dunno if this is the game for you.