LOTD balance anyone?

[Garamore]

Funny thing is if you drop the AOE cap to 9 you promote zerging as theres even less a you can do vs the blob.

[Cyrylius]

Now, I'm aware I didn't take part in the last lotd, and that makes my opinion obviously not important for the likes of lumpi or ninjagon (edit: or normanis). But RoR is a game focused on pvp, and maybe, just maybe, correct mentality for pvp is "can I play better", not "can the circumstances be more favorable for me". It has already been said that lotd has identical number cap for both sides, and difference comes from somewhere else (for this example, let's say order pugs leaving lotd before it finishes). In pvp games you don't try to fix issues with gameplay by changing the game, you do the by playing better. Why do destro pugs stay in the zone while order pugs leave, if the kills are even? Why destro forms small-scale groups (I joined a few of those), and order does not? Why do order guilds, in general, ignore lotd, while destro ones put a lot of effort into the event?
Perhaps bene tileax (or any other order guild/ group) can be the change they want themselves, if they copy the tactics destro uses, match destro warbands one to one, and put the effort (and perhaps k/d ratio tanking, cause if you check the statistics destro has lower higher deathblows than order) to play for score rather than personal gain? Winning shouldn't be easy, it should require effort and skill, and sacrificing personal gain for other, less tangible and direct rewards. Order won at least a few lotd events. Do what was done back then. Copy the same tactic, or try to do the one destro uses. If that fails, try to pinpoint the exact realm imbalance that caused it, then look for countermeasures. Be the goood players: create the meta, not follow it.
Both realms have their distinct advantages. Figure out what order has. It might require playing destro. Use them. Win fights. Then win lotd. If you can't, even after trying everything you can think of, make another thread on forum.
Some players here (I'm not calling names nor fact checking their claims) say that they made the order win lotd by themselves (with guilds). Do what they did, try it, maybe ask for tips about specific situations. Communicate. Improve. Compete and win. It's a pvp game, and as such it requires you to be better than others. Start with being as good as others. Then make another post.

few u mean in usa time zone? or when destro log order and stomp destro pugs at their wc? i am only against aoe cap not against loosing or improve. and aagainst zerg. offc u told much good stuff byt after all those order tank nerfs for ppl its safer play healer or rdps. why not nerf slayer byt nerfed kobs? we are here back to class balance. ppl nerfed tanks not dps. so ppl chose play dps. its caussed rdps favour order play more rdps. not mention all bugged pulls.

Now, the only tank mirror i can speak about is SM/BO, and i can assure you BO is nowhere near close to SM. I can also agree than bg is better for small-scale than ib. I've however heard, and please correct me if I'm mistaken, that kotbs has 15% heal amplifier that chosen lacks. As tank damage is not a factor in a warband, the only tank i can see being better for destro than for order is bg/ib... and incidentally snb bg is absolutely useless. So, sorry but your argument about order tanks being nerfed does not seem to have any grounding in reality.
And then you also didn't (again, correct me if I'm being hasty with my assumptions) play destro tanks, that rely heavily on avoidance. That get wholly bypassed by slayers. Its only one class, and many more arguments, but still it means all destro tanks have to constantly play around any slayer they can see. Or at least I do, and I play sov tanks most of the time.
And then don't think I didn't notice that you avoided answering the main part of my post, instead trying to deflect and change the topic. If you're not against losing and improving, then do both. There were order warbands capable of carrying lotd, which means its possible. They could also carry it on destro. If you can't then what's the discussion about? Why should we balance the game around non top players? I'm not trying to be offensive, even if I probably am. But the only real situation where balance can be suspected to be skewed is when two top tier groups of players fight and they (both!) Come to conclusion that fight is unwinnable for one side. You are, from my understanding, not as good as at least one other group that plays on order. Game should not be balanced around your capabilities. That's all.

[JohnnyWayne]

Seriously, I challenge you next time to leave the safety of the zerg and lead/join a 6-12 man to take BOs. You'll actually run into a lot of enemies in small scale fights that actually will test skill and tactics. A lot more than you realize.

Not sure what you are going on about. I've been playing small scale mostly lately, usually 3 mans. Anything above 6 can hardly be called a small scale group.

Both realms have their distinct advantages. Figure out what order has. It might require playing destro. Use them. Win fights. Then win lotd. If you can't, even after trying everything you can think of, make another thread on forum.

Ok so, order is good at: Higher numbers than destro. Now lets look what the anti zerg mechanic nerfs... Right, exactly that. Now go figure. Then the next thing is, as it was mentioned here before, small scale groups take the BOs in lotd. Order has few small scale groups as it stands now, especially even fewer interested in this pve **** show lotd is. Why does order have less small scale groups? It was mentioned - pull meta, overtuned small scale classes on destro (looking at you, WE, rSH, Shaman and sorc) and more utility things like general CC, moral and AP drain. Most people intersted in small scale gravitate naturally to the side they have a easier / better time on. Now, once again, go figure. Seems like everything is rigged against order in lotd. That is why in other areas order is doing better I'd say. I really wish they would fix fort pop to have a baseline of 30 people and then only scale up, but that is, as I said before, a different matter.

[Cyrylius]

Both realms have their distinct advantages. Figure out what order has. It might require playing destro. Use them. Win fights. Then win lotd. If you can't, even after trying everything you can think of, make another thread on forum.

Ok so, order is good at: Higher numbers than destro. Now lets look what the anti zerg mechanic nerfs... Right, exactly that. Now go figure. Then the next thing is, as it was mentioned here before, small scale groups take the BOs in lotd. Order has few small scale groups as it stands now, especially even fewer interested in this pve **** show lotd is. Why does order have less small scale groups? It was mentioned - pull meta, overtuned small scale classes on destro (looking at you, WE, rSH, Shaman and sorc) and more utility things like general CC, moral and AP drain. Most people intersted in small scale gravitate naturally to the side they have a easier / better time on. Now, once again, go figure. Seems like everything is rigged against order in lotd. That is why in other areas order is doing better I'd say. I really wish they would fix fort pop to have a baseline of 30 people and then only scale up, but that is, as I said before, a different matter.

WH is worse than WE for group play, yes, but it's still a strong class and good WE players can also do very well on WH. Pull meta on destro exists cause it lacks the jumps order has on most of its mdps classes. Actual smallscale players consider Double slayer comp to be the strongest one currently in game, i belive. Shaman is not a Small-scale class, its a solo class. And I belive reynor said somewhere (and he is, to my knowledge, solo specialist) that wh is better for solo roam than shaman. Sorc based parties will work just as well with a bright wizard, tup forms both and they work fine on any side. AP drain is on both sides. Ranged CC (that's what I'm supposing you're talking about) is even, rkd on bw mirrored on mara. But ASW is a very strong small scale class, just like WL (much better than mara, that for sure), and slayer with proper support can outmuscle any other dps on destro.
And that brings us (again, a recurring theme) to the fact that you are trying to talk about something that's not exactly related to my post. I said that order has advantages, which you should know. You listed destro strong sides and you expect me to say "well, yes, destro needs to be nerfed". That's not how it works. You play order small scale. Try to counter destro. I can't see where you lack CC, slayers do cause more damage than WEs, SM can get you winds on SW and does amazing damage, bw can spec rkd, SW has Fester arrow, AM can do the kite game really good even if (too my knowledge) worse than shaman. Destro has to play around slayers, you need to play around Small-scale destro groups. If that's the issue, maybe bene or other order guilds should form 6 man roam parties not mid bo blob. In not gonna figure that out for yourself, but (I repeat here) if other, better players could win lotd on order and compete in Small-scale against destro than you can probably do the same.

[madrocks]

Keep on living the dream that rvr is about fair fights.

[Detangler]

Seriously, I challenge you next time to leave the safety of the zerg and lead/join a 6-12 man to take BOs. You'll actually run into a lot of enemies in small scale fights that actually will test skill and tactics. A lot more than you realize.

Not sure what you are going on about. I've been playing small scale mostly lately, usually 3 mans. Anything above 6 can hardly be called a small scale group.

Spoiler:

Both realms have their distinct advantages. Figure out what order has. It might require playing destro. Use them. Win fights. Then win lotd. If you can't, even after trying everything you can think of, make another thread on forum.

Ok so, order is good at: Higher numbers than destro. Now lets look what the anti zerg mechanic nerfs... Right, exactly that. Now go figure. Then the next thing is, as it was mentioned here before, small scale groups take the BOs in lotd. Order has few small scale groups as it stands now, especially even fewer interested in this pve **** show lotd is. Why does order have less small scale groups? It was mentioned - pull meta, overtuned small scale classes on destro (looking at you, WE, rSH, Shaman and sorc) and more utility things like general CC, moral and AP drain. Most people intersted in small scale gravitate naturally to the side they have a easier / better time on. Now, once again, go figure. Seems like everything is rigged against order in lotd. That is why in other areas order is doing better I'd say. I really wish they would fix fort pop to have a baseline of 30 people and then only scale up, but that is, as I said before, a different matter.

Not sure what I'm going on about? How about your previous post:

seems work as intend. 1 side pve lotd ather side pve rvr. seems good for future when in ror titles says war is ewrhywhere. yes its ewhrewhere byt its not war its pve.

You disparage the Destro side for doing the objective by saying they only want to PvE. Do think Order doesn't have the tools to do a good small meta? Really?? Yes, the WL pet can bug out, and it sure doesn't work well in fort fights, but small scale?? WL shines like no other - pull, pounce, and they can even bring a SM to pounce with them for added instant backline pressure. All tools that the Destro side does not have access to.

hm why than destro top guilds blob?

A strange pivot and distraction from everything I just said. Okay....

To respond, the largest/top guilds have a lot of members, so it makes sense that they would want all their members and take their 24 man's to fight other large fights. Taking a full WB to the outskirts is a waste of manpower, so go hold the middle and fight the enemy blob. That's kinda how it works on both sides.

You have nothing to counter what I said to you. You claim it's PvE mode to go cap and back cap objectives, yet it seems you've never actually done it. Go try it next time. Maybe you'll find something new and exciting.

24 is not zerg its just maximum what u can squeeze into wb

Where did I say "zerg" in that post? Again, "taking a full WB to the outskirts is a waste of manpower, so go hold the middle and fight the enemy blob."

All this back and forth and not once have you said that you have even TRIED to do the objectives. Pivot, deflect, and whataboutism is not a great way to debate.

I have taken way too much time on trying to educate folks that don't want to learn on here....

[Asderas27]

Ninjagon still whining about lotd losses lmao.
Classic Bene Tlielax move

didnt seen tup there on top kills

We didn't bother forming to farm you guys for 123453145145th time.

[normanis]

Now, I'm aware I didn't take part in the last lotd, and that makes my opinion obviously not important for the likes of lumpi or ninjagon (edit: or normanis). But RoR is a game focused on pvp, and maybe, just maybe, correct mentality for pvp is "can I play better", not "can the circumstances be more favorable for me". It has already been said that lotd has identical number cap for both sides, and difference comes from somewhere else (for this example, let's say order pugs leaving lotd before it finishes). In pvp games you don't try to fix issues with gameplay by changing the game, you do the by playing better. Why do destro pugs stay in the zone while order pugs leave, if the kills are even? Why destro forms small-scale groups (I joined a few of those), and order does not? Why do order guilds, in general, ignore lotd, while destro ones put a lot of effort into the event?
Perhaps bene tileax (or any other order guild/ group) can be the change they want themselves, if they copy the tactics destro uses, match destro warbands one to one, and put the effort (and perhaps k/d ratio tanking, cause if you check the statistics destro has lower higher deathblows than order) to play for score rather than personal gain? Winning shouldn't be easy, it should require effort and skill, and sacrificing personal gain for other, less tangible and direct rewards. Order won at least a few lotd events. Do what was done back then. Copy the same tactic, or try to do the one destro uses. If that fails, try to pinpoint the exact realm imbalance that caused it, then look for countermeasures. Be the goood players: create the meta, not follow it.
Both realms have their distinct advantages. Figure out what order has. It might require playing destro. Use them. Win fights. Then win lotd. If you can't, even after trying everything you can think of, make another thread on forum.
Some players here (I'm not calling names nor fact checking their claims) say that they made the order win lotd by themselves (with guilds). Do what they did, try it, maybe ask for tips about specific situations. Communicate. Improve. Compete and win. It's a pvp game, and as such it requires you to be better than others. Start with being as good as others. Then make another post.

few u mean in usa time zone? or when destro log order and stomp destro pugs at their wc? i am only against aoe cap not against loosing or improve. and aagainst zerg. offc u told much good stuff byt after all those order tank nerfs for ppl its safer play healer or rdps. why not nerf slayer byt nerfed kobs? we are here back to class balance. ppl nerfed tanks not dps. so ppl chose play dps. its caussed rdps favour order play more rdps. not mention all bugged pulls.

Now, the only tank mirror i can speak about is SM/BO, and i can assure you BO is nowhere near close to SM. I can also agree than bg is better for small-scale than ib. I've however heard, and please correct me if I'm mistaken, that kotbs has 15% heal amplifier that chosen lacks. As tank damage is not a factor in a warband, the only tank i can see being better for destro than for order is bg/ib... and incidentally snb bg is absolutely useless. So, sorry but your argument about order tanks being nerfed does not seem to have any grounding in reality.
And then you also didn't (again, correct me if I'm being hasty with my assumptions) play destro tanks, that rely heavily on avoidance. That get wholly bypassed by slayers. Its only one class, and many more arguments, but still it means all destro tanks have to constantly play around any slayer they can see. Or at least I do, and I play sov tanks most of the time.
And then don't think I didn't notice that you avoided answering the main part of my post, instead trying to deflect and change the topic. If you're not against losing and improving, then do both. There were order warbands capable of carrying lotd, which means its possible. They could also carry it on destro. If you can't then what's the discussion about? Why should we balance the game around non top players? I'm not trying to be offensive, even if I probably am. But the only real situation where balance can be suspected to be skewed is when two top tier groups of players fight and they (both!) Come to conclusion that fight is unwinnable for one side. You are, from my understanding, not as good as at least one other group that plays on order. Game should not be balanced around your capabilities. That's all.

well there is nuenace with that 15% heal . 15% kobs+ 25% from rp=40% byt chosen runs 25% heal debuff so its back to 15% . byt for him has still 25% buff from zealot (if he is in grp offc)
i mentiioned nerf slayers. bg got 2h knockdown, because ib has. byt same time has 5 sec knockdown what he dont give to ib.
p.s and yes order has more pugs. what is simple for new player play? tank/dps/rdps/healer? rdps order alway flee when meet destro zerg and leave tanks behind. or next time tank dont even dismount with such realm behaviour. would be good zerging is for pugs not for premade guilds. pugs zerging because they lack leader and they are not 2/2/2 . so they group up to net got soloed by 24 men premades. lets say in short quality vs quantity. byt now is liek that quality+quantity vs quantity. why i am against 24 aoe because when wa son pnp we never zerged , after changes kicked in they started zerg. 9aoe means u need asiist not just aoe spam in all directions.
if its anti zerg tool aoe 24 why its not 48 or 72?

[normanis]

Seriously, I challenge you next time to leave the safety of the zerg and lead/join a 6-12 man to take BOs. You'll actually run into a lot of enemies in small scale fights that actually will test skill and tactics. A lot more than you realize.

Not sure what you are going on about. I've been playing small scale mostly lately, usually 3 mans. Anything above 6 can hardly be called a small scale group.

Spoiler:

Both realms have their distinct advantages. Figure out what order has. It might require playing destro. Use them. Win fights. Then win lotd. If you can't, even after trying everything you can think of, make another thread on forum.

Ok so, order is good at: Higher numbers than destro. Now lets look what the anti zerg mechanic nerfs... Right, exactly that. Now go figure. Then the next thing is, as it was mentioned here before, small scale groups take the BOs in lotd. Order has few small scale groups as it stands now, especially even fewer interested in this pve **** show lotd is. Why does order have less small scale groups? It was mentioned - pull meta, overtuned small scale classes on destro (looking at you, WE, rSH, Shaman and sorc) and more utility things like general CC, moral and AP drain. Most people intersted in small scale gravitate naturally to the side they have a easier / better time on. Now, once again, go figure. Seems like everything is rigged against order in lotd. That is why in other areas order is doing better I'd say. I really wish they would fix fort pop to have a baseline of 30 people and then only scale up, but that is, as I said before, a different matter.

Not sure what I'm going on about? How about your previous post:

seems work as intend. 1 side pve lotd ather side pve rvr. seems good for future when in ror titles says war is ewrhywhere. yes its ewhrewhere byt its not war its pve.

You disparage the Destro side for doing the objective by saying they only want to PvE. Do think Order doesn't have the tools to do a good small meta? Really?? Yes, the WL pet can bug out, and it sure doesn't work well in fort fights, but small scale?? WL shines like no other - pull, pounce, and they can even bring a SM to pounce with them for added instant backline pressure. All tools that the Destro side does not have access to.

A strange pivot and distraction from everything I just said. Okay....

To respond, the largest/top guilds have a lot of members, so it makes sense that they would want all their members and take their 24 man's to fight other large fights. Taking a full WB to the outskirts is a waste of manpower, so go hold the middle and fight the enemy blob. That's kinda how it works on both sides.

You have nothing to counter what I said to you. You claim it's PvE mode to go cap and back cap objectives, yet it seems you've never actually done it. Go try it next time. Maybe you'll find something new and exciting.

24 is not zerg its just maximum what u can squeeze into wb

Where did I say "zerg" in that post? Again, "taking a full WB to the outskirts is a waste of manpower, so go hold the middle and fight the enemy blob."

All this back and forth and not once have you said that you have even TRIED to do the objectives. Pivot, deflect, and whataboutism is not a great way to debate.

I have taken way too much time on trying to educate folks that don't want to learn on here....

well pve dors , pve rvr mean take empty keeps/zones (with least resistence) ppl from oposite skipp defence, because we dont respawn in keep by in wc. pve in lotd means farming oposite faction at wc and take objectives with least resistence. dont be offended about pve ewhereywhere. ppl just chose that form of gameplay. and if someone whant change it ppl meet him with forks and torches here in forum.
like i know why order 6men premades guild chose do pve dor than fight.

[CyunUnderis]

well there is nuenace with that 15% heal . 15% kobs+ 25% from rp=40% byt chosen runs 25% heal debuff so its back to 15% . byt for him has still 25% buff from zealot (if he is in grp offc)
i mentiioned nerf slayers. bg got 2h knockdown because ib has byt same time has 5 sec knockdown what he dont give to ib.

BG : 20sc CD 2/3/4/5sc KD based on Hate, only on block
IB : 10sc CD, 3 sc KD, on block or parry.

Thank you for showing the incredible advantage that the S/B BG has compared to the S/B IB.