[PTS] Feedback on stats/formula/renown changes

[Zxul]

So to you, melee having to get in range and hit a 50+% parry opponent is fine, but magic ranged DPS hitting from 100+ ft against 20% resistances and 15 to 20% disrupt is not acceptable?

Remind me how much parry average rdps being hit by a mdps has, because for some reason it looks like a bit less than 50%. Actually, I don't remember ever parrying anything on a rdps being hit by a mdps for some strange reason.

Also, remind me which ability gives everyone a free 45% parry. Because I sure can remember HtL providing everyone with a free 45% dodge/ disrupt, which stacks with dodge/disr from renown and will/init, but for some strange reason I just can't remember an ability which does a similar buff to parry.

Also, there are those Wind jewelry set + resist linis, which give any toon which hit 40 an extra 700+ resists. And which despite the superiority of rdps which you speak of, non uses for some strange reason.

Or in other words, stop making things up.

Remind me how much disrupt you would face in the previous version of the game ?
It was more than now, because you got no free strikethrough from Intelligence. Only one who benefit from this in current version are full willpower healers, for everyone else Disrupt is now non-existent, event with full renown, thanks to this flawed system.

Before Disrupt/dodge were around 15% for most people, on average, with maxed renown. And it was very low, but more than now. I never heard ranged DPS complaining about too much avoidances, especially after Sovereign era.

Remind me how much parry are you facing while hitting something else than tanks, or ws twinking slayer/ choppa.

[Fenris78]

Spoiler:

So to you, melee having to get in range and hit a 50+% parry opponent is fine, but magic ranged DPS hitting from 100+ ft against 20% resistances and 15 to 20% disrupt is not acceptable?

Remind me how much parry average rdps being hit by a mdps has, because for some reason it looks like a bit less than 50%. Actually, I don't remember ever parrying anything on a rdps being hit by a mdps for some strange reason.

Also, remind me which ability gives everyone a free 45% parry. Because I sure can remember HtL providing everyone with a free 45% dodge/ disrupt, which stacks with dodge/disr from renown and will/init, but for some strange reason I just can't remember an ability which does a similar buff to parry.

Also, there are those Wind jewelry set + resist linis, which give any toon which hit 40 an extra 700+ resists. And which despite the superiority of rdps which you speak of, non uses for some strange reason.

Or in other words, stop making things up.

Remind me how much disrupt you would face in the previous version of the game ?
It was more than now, because you got no free strikethrough from Intelligence. Only one who benefit from this in current version are full willpower healers, for everyone else Disrupt is now non-existent, event with full renown, thanks to this flawed system.

Before Disrupt/dodge were around 15% for most people, on average, with maxed renown. And it was very low, but more than now. I never heard ranged DPS complaining about too much avoidances, especially after Sovereign era.

Remind me how much parry are you facing while hitting something else than tanks, or ws twinking slayer/ choppa.

Parry on ranged class is about as useless as dodge or disrupt on melee class, so I guess we are even.
Still, you can get 18 % parry from renown on every character, as well as parry on talismans, consumables, twilight rings, even some PvE rings that are not class-restricted.

Then you got ranged snares and CCs, plus kiting tols to avoid being hit by melee, while melee cant do anything if they are not in close range to you. And you got terrain, bumps that cant be avoided (healers), and so on to take the most of your ranged advantages.

IIRC, nobody before complained about not being able to consistently hit HtL tanks (or channeled Skills ones like 2H SM, BO, BG for instance) with ranged attacks.
And that was before the free 10% strikethrough by main stat.

Magical resistances are already ultra hardcapped to 660, bringing them to a maximum of 800 by using strongest buffs (lini or auras), provided you already invested more than standard BiS stuff into them (Winds rings, Legendary talisman, etc.).

With current system, you got 350-400 strong debuffs to magic resistances everywhere, bringing your 700-800 resistance to half that value, wich I already covered by proposed 5% Magic resistance strikethrough by 100 Intelligence stat points, bringing a maximum of 52,5% resistances reduction, wich is a 350-400 reduction on a maxed out resistance.
Same value for actual system, with the notable difference of not reducing "standard" resistances value to zero, exactly how most Armor Penetration works. So on a 450 average resistance, you will get 213 = 12,5% resistance to magic damages. On a maxed out stat, it will be reduced to 22%... Is that still too much resistance for your taste ?
Medium armor of 3500 is reducing 40% of damage against a 700 WS opponent, your magical damage will be at best, half this damage reduction.
Light armor with 825 potion and 2-3 talismans will get around 2600, meaning a 30% damage reduction in same conditions.

So while you will be hit by melee (provided he will be able to reach you and put you in danger), reducing between 30 and 40% of his damage, you will hit him for 80% of your damage. And you probably will start damaging him before he can reach you.


About tanks and very high disrupt chances, if they HtL they wont be able to threaten you, or maybe I'm mistaken.

As for funnel situations, it wont change much for them, but it will bring better survivability of mdps against magical attacks wich are currently very strong, probably too much, in the game.

[Zxul]

Parry on ranged class is about as useless as dodge or disrupt on melee class, so I guess we are even.
Still, you can get 18 % parry from renown on every character, as well as parry on talismans, consumables, twilight rings, even some PvE rings that are not class-restricted.

18% parry will be negated to 0% parry by any 2h mdps, without any investment into striketrough whatsoever.

Then you got ranged snares and CCs, plus kiting tols to avoid being hit by melee, while melee cant do anything if they are not in close range to you. And you got terrain, bumps that cant be avoided (healers), and so on to take the most of your ranged advantages.

How many ranged snares do you think bw/sorc got? Or engi/magus? How much ranged cc which can be used to kite those classes got? Name exact abilities plz, instead of general statements. Also interestingly enough, healers can heal the mdps just as well as they are healing the rdps.

IIRC, nobody before complained about not being able to consistently hit HtL tanks (or channeled Skills ones like 2H SM, BO, BG for instance) with ranged attacks.
And that was before the free 10% strikethrough by main stat.

That is because casters know better than try and cast into htl tank, or someone behind it. While you for some reason seem to be just fine with everyone getting 45% free defenses vs ranged, its having defenses vs melee is where you consider it a problem.

Magical resistances are already ultra hardcapped to 660, bringing them to a maximum of 800 by using strongest buffs (lini or auras), provided you already invested more than standard BiS stuff into them (Winds rings, Legendary talisman, etc.).

With current system, you got 350-400 strong debuffs to magic resistances everywhere, bringing your 700-800 resistance to half that value, wich I already covered by proposed 5% Magic resistance strikethrough by 100 Intelligence stat points, bringing a maximum of 52,5% resistances reduction, wich is a 350-400 reduction on a maxed out resistance.

Not even sure what are you trying to say by half of that. But the basic idea is to have enough resists to still having 40% resists after the resist debuff (highest one 372 btw), just like if going for armor you don't stop at cap (75% mitigation) but instead going for maximum to insure mitigation after armor debuffs/ws. You know, the basic game mechanics.

Also, there is no maximum 800 on resists, not even sure where did you manage to get up that idea. If you want you can get 1 k+, what will be used for mitigation is the value after resist debuff, up to 40% mitigation.

Same value for actual system, with the notable difference of not reducing "standard" resistances value to zero, exactly how most Armor Penetration works. So on a 450 average resistance, you will get 213 = 12,5% resistance to magic damages. On a maxed out stat, it will be reduced to 22%... Is that still too much resistance for your taste ?
Medium armor of 3500 is reducing 40% of damage against a 700 WS opponent, your magical damage will be at best, half this damage reduction.
Light armor with 825 potion and 2-3 talismans will get around 2600, meaning a 30% damage reduction in same conditions.

So while you will be hit by melee (provided he will be able to reach you and put you in danger), reducing between 30 and 40% of his damage, you will hit him for 80% of your damage. And you probably will start damaging him before he can reach you.

Still no idea what are you trying to say even. But it sounds like your actual complain is that when having zero investments into resists- 450 resists despite all the resist buffs available, resist lini, and Winds set- you don't mitigate a lot of magic dmg. Interesting, have you tried stripping all your armor as well? In that case you will mitigate even less, so more to complain about.

About tanks and very high disrupt chances, if they HtL they wont be able to threaten you, or maybe I'm mistaken.

Here is how htl works. Htl protects not only the tank, but also everyone behind him, up to total 45% for everyone behind the tank. Also, interestingly enough, the tank can move just fine while channeling it, protecting the wb behind him from ranged while pushing forward. Isn't it fun to finally learn game mechanics?

As for funnel situations, it wont change much for them, but it will bring better survivability of mdps against magical attacks wich are currently very strong, probably too much, in the game.

Yep, as we have seen in your post, if you ignore every way to increase your resists, and then also make sure that there are no tanks around to buff your disrupt, and then also strip all of your armor just to be sure, than indeed magical attacks will have a very strong effect on you.

[Omegus]

Im saying its only combined for damage crit ra right?

Heal crit should not be combined into it.

Spoiler:

Why do you say that? We have 4 classes with stat-swap mechanics to allow them to switch into different roles on the fly: SW, SH, RP and Zea. One of the things that made this awkward was that the stats that get swapped are only based on items (basic gear stats, set bonuses and talismans) which meant that renown spent on crit and potions used for crit could not be converted, leaving you with a 19% crit deficit if you tried to utilise this feature while maxing out crit (14% max crit from renown, 5% crit from potions, and yes there are heal crit potions).

With the PTS patch, two of the 4 role-swap classes are no longer hampered by renown crit and just have a 5% crit potion to worry about, assuming they use a crit potion. However, the Zealot and Rune Priest - which also have a button designed to let them convert stats and roles during a fight and have crit-based procs - still have a 19% crit chance deficit. I am asking for this to be changed to get closer (still a loooooooong way off) for this role-switching mechanic to actually be viable, as currently the main use of the Zea/RP stat conversion is to make gearing for a single role easier which is ridiculous.

Combining heal/dmg crit into one stat would make Shamans even more overpowered than they already are.

Combining dps/heal crit is silly on many levels, may it never happen.

As for ranged/melee crit it makes some sense for ASW which hardly anyone plays these days, not sure who else will benefit that much.

Spoiler:

As explained prior, this is just about combining crit from renown, not giving everyone 50% heal crit and magic crit at the same time.

I just dont get why this combining of renown crit is done. What is the purpose, the goal? I dont see none beside may be slight buff to hybrid specs.

You all fear shammy and am but most benefit from that combine crit will got rp/zealot and if their dps spec become potent that will be significant buff but that is still mainly on 1v1 level of play

Spoiler:

No feedback was given, but seeing as the only benefit of this is for hybrid specs / role-swap specs to no longer have such a huge crit deficit if attempting to use that mechanic. Except it only helps SW/SH trying to use their stat swap in combat rather than as a passive gearing ability for a single role, and not the RP/Zealot.

For the Zealot, I would absolutely love to try properly switching between modes in larger fights (WTB 8 tactic slots lol) - switching to "DPS" mode and then using Chaotic Agitation to proc as many heal debuffs as possible from range (which needs crits) before switching back to healing mode. Tactic slot pressure is one thing that prevents these types of switches, and renown crit issues are another.

the devs ability to ignore all sensible suggestions for years while at the same time coming up with **** nobody asked for is something else. theres 200 people online right now. what other numbers you need to understand these changes are not the way to go? i dont care its 9:00am. its still saturday and this game is good enough at its core to have 1k online at all times. just stop freaking killing it.

Spoiler:

Yes the people are not online due to a patch that doesn't exist yet, not that it's 9am during summer . Please go whine in a different thread.

What's the Opportunity crit stat tied to?
If it's Critical Hit, then according to my testing on previous versions that would also increase Heal Crit chance.

Spoiler:

It's tied to melee/ranged/magic, i.e. if you put points into Oppotunity then getstats comes up with boosts to those 3 individual stats rather than the combined generic critical hit. However it does seem bugged and not providing enough stats so I'll need to put that on the bug tracker.

AM and Shaman already got the 10% crit tactic wich is working for both heal and damage hits, really no need to blend the two crit from renown into one.

Spoiler:

Are they getting 10% to both from a single tactic? If so, surely that's a bug? Or do mean they are spending 2 tactic slots to get the 10% to both as intended?

It makes sense for SH and SW because both roles are tied, and it's part of their mechanics with same purpose (doing DPS), and the biggest gripe here is the current inability to spec Crit from renown, since renown ranged crit is not converted to melee crit and vice-versa.

Spoiler:

What is the purpose of Harbinger of doom if it is not to do dual roles?

As for hybrid healers, the point is to make compromises between the DPS role and Haling role, if every hybrid healer can get both for half the price, there is no need for pure healing or pure DPS specs, everyone will run hybrid and be god on DPS and Healing at the same time.

Even RP/Zealot, and to a smaller extend AM/Shaman mechanic wich give them a buff to DPS, dont need that (especially RP/Zealot wich already are converting Crit from stuff wich is already more porwerful than AM/Sham mechanic).

Spoiler:

For Zealot/RP, the compromise is that they are either doing healing or damage (well... "damage") and the stats for one role go to **** when in the other role. It cannot weave back and forth between the two and Harbinger/Breaking has a chunky cooldown. That, and Zealots/RP specs are very very much tied to their tactics which prevents them from being able to do all the cool healing stuff and all the cool damage stuff in one build. This is much different to AM/Shaman where most of their tools are tied to abilities having secondary effects and tactics are a relatively minor part of the build (in comparison to how much utility is on their abilities).

Do you think that merging the stats on renown would make AM/Shaman overbearing in 12v12? 24v24? Or is this more for solo/duo where they are already busted anyway?

If (hypothetically speaking) renown - and only renown - for healing and magic was merged, what changes would need to be made to the AM/Shaman to compensate if it proves to much of a buff for them?

Well, since the class that most would benefit from the mechanic of the healers is RP and Zealot, and they convert the crit values, the thing that makes them balanced is that they have to choose which to have when they use the conversion mechanic, is to just make them able to convert renown point crit stat heal or opportunity by their mechanic.

That leaves AM/shaman to not get "free" heal crit in dps spec, but allows Rp/zealot to stack massive crit at the cost of everything else, but only in the form they toggle to.

Else you would want to just make a single crit stat, and build around it, DOK+WP would also benefit from crit on melee and heal, then build around the new stat. AM/shaman could then be tuned into being much more a hybrid than they currently are, making weaving damage/heal a necessity rather than the joke it currently is.

I always felt that the class mechanic of AM/Shaman was poorly designed. The original design of the classes was around weaving damage and healing for greater and greater effect, but that design was never embraced, as the class mechanic as a whole keeps it back. If instead the class was balanced around having to weave heals between their attacks to reach full potential, it would be much more challenging and fun to play, while giving more ways to counter it.

Make attack/heal strength increase in damage by 5% for as you cast each spell, let them stack to something like 40%, give a duration of 5 seconds as long as you cast an opposite spell every 5 seconds, if you fail to weave once you lose the entire stack going back to 0. If casting on GCD and only using instas(which is not always the best choice, ramp up time would be 12 seconds minimum, or 24 seconds if only ramping up every time they cast both a heal and a dps spell. (gives a few counters, silence, ap drain, knockdown, interrupt to break the AM's potential both as healer and dps) and lets tactics be how you nudge the class to dps or heal being your primary focus. And makes using the big heals and longer cast abilities be much scarier. (set it to 12 seconds, and big slow cast heals become more of a finisher with risk, and searing touch channel at 6 second cast would be a true finisher at the cost of losing your stacks if fully channeled).

This would give the class a completely unique twist in play style(but still very much in accordance to the lifetap mechanics like EoV and FoDG + heal, while also giving counters to the class in smallscale/roaming.

With the AM/Shaman built around a different playstyle, it could allow the full integration of crit into just a single renown point tree for all classes, and leave open spaces for new kinds of renown abilities and stats that currently there is no space for, allowing for many new and interesting designs to be made in the years to come.

Spoiler:

Having Harbinger/Breaking convert renown crit would be sensible, but then why were the damage crits merged into one when that only benefits SW/SH who could've had their stance abilities amended to convert renown crit? I wonder if it's actually a technical limitation where the ability system can't swap/adjust renown bonuses on the fly?

Everything mentioned about how the AM/Shaman was designed to weave I agree with and it's a shame how things ended up, much like Harbinger/Breaking have not come close to reaching their full potential (or really any potential) to change up playstyles on the fly for Zea/RP.

[Fenris78]

Spoiler:

Parry on ranged class is about as useless as dodge or disrupt on melee class, so I guess we are even.
Still, you can get 18 % parry from renown on every character, as well as parry on talismans, consumables, twilight rings, even some PvE rings that are not class-restricted.

18% parry will be negated to 0% parry by any 2h mdps, without any investment into striketrough whatsoever.

Then you got ranged snares and CCs, plus kiting tols to avoid being hit by melee, while melee cant do anything if they are not in close range to you. And you got terrain, bumps that cant be avoided (healers), and so on to take the most of your ranged advantages.

How many ranged snares do you think bw/sorc got? Or engi/magus? How much ranged cc which can be used to kite those classes got? Name exact abilities plz, instead of general statements. Also interestingly enough, healers can heal the mdps just as well as they are healing the rdps.

IIRC, nobody before complained about not being able to consistently hit HtL tanks (or channeled Skills ones like 2H SM, BO, BG for instance) with ranged attacks.
And that was before the free 10% strikethrough by main stat.

That is because casters know better than try and cast into htl tank, or someone behind it. While you for some reason seem to be just fine with everyone getting 45% free defenses vs ranged, its having defenses vs melee is where you consider it a problem.

Magical resistances are already ultra hardcapped to 660, bringing them to a maximum of 800 by using strongest buffs (lini or auras), provided you already invested more than standard BiS stuff into them (Winds rings, Legendary talisman, etc.).

With current system, you got 350-400 strong debuffs to magic resistances everywhere, bringing your 700-800 resistance to half that value, wich I already covered by proposed 5% Magic resistance strikethrough by 100 Intelligence stat points, bringing a maximum of 52,5% resistances reduction, wich is a 350-400 reduction on a maxed out resistance.

Not even sure what are you trying to say by half of that. But the basic idea is to have enough resists to still having 40% resists after the resist debuff (highest one 372 btw), just like if going for armor you don't stop at cap (75% mitigation) but instead going for maximum to insure mitigation after armor debuffs/ws. You know, the basic game mechanics.

Also, there is no maximum 800 on resists, not even sure where did you manage to get up that idea. If you want you can get 1 k+, what will be used for mitigation is the value after resist debuff, up to 40% mitigation.

Same value for actual system, with the notable difference of not reducing "standard" resistances value to zero, exactly how most Armor Penetration works. So on a 450 average resistance, you will get 213 = 12,5% resistance to magic damages. On a maxed out stat, it will be reduced to 22%... Is that still too much resistance for your taste ?
Medium armor of 3500 is reducing 40% of damage against a 700 WS opponent, your magical damage will be at best, half this damage reduction.
Light armor with 825 potion and 2-3 talismans will get around 2600, meaning a 30% damage reduction in same conditions.

So while you will be hit by melee (provided he will be able to reach you and put you in danger), reducing between 30 and 40% of his damage, you will hit him for 80% of your damage. And you probably will start damaging him before he can reach you.

Still no idea what are you trying to say even. But it sounds like your actual complain is that when having zero investments into resists- 450 resists despite all the resist buffs available, resist lini, and Winds set- you don't mitigate a lot of magic dmg. Interesting, have you tried stripping all your armor as well? In that case you will mitigate even less, so more to complain about.

About tanks and very high disrupt chances, if they HtL they wont be able to threaten you, or maybe I'm mistaken.

Here is how htl works. Htl protects not only the tank, but also everyone behind him, up to total 45% for everyone behind the tank. Also, interestingly enough, the tank can move just fine while channeling it, protecting the wb behind him from ranged while pushing forward. Isn't it fun to finally learn game mechanics?

As for funnel situations, it wont change much for them, but it will bring better survivability of mdps against magical attacks wich are currently very strong, probably too much, in the game.

Yep, as we have seen in your post, if you ignore every way to increase your resists, and then also make sure that there are no tanks around to buff your disrupt, and then also strip all of your armor just to be sure, than indeed magical attacks will have a very strong effect on you.

Being in this game for about seven years now, I'm pretty much aware of how things are working, thank you .


Difference is when you equip your armor, you get decent amounts of "passive" damage reduction against physical damage, while you cannot do that for magical resistances, unless you invest much more into them.

Like 3 ring slots dedicated to specific magical resistances (purple lv 39 rings for 2 resistances or The Winds set), liniment (wich takes you the noly liniment slot you have) or a fellow (and grouped) support class like Knight/Chosen.

So your armor is mitigating pretty much enough physical damage without much effort (as soon you use armor potion that it), but for some reason to get similar level of magical protection, you need specific items and significant sacrifices to your offensive power ?

While casters can just pump up their Intelligence, put every point of renown into defensive stats, and deal their full damage against almost everyone ?

For instance, why is Engineer forced to heavily invest into Weapon Skill to be effective, unlike Magus ?

With my proposed solution, everyone could just focus into their main stat, and for added defense AND offense, could also pump their weaponskill a bit.
Anyway, it wont be mandatory, as I detailed before, casters will eventually face lower avoidances.

But for maximum efficiency, they could feel the necessity of investing into more than one stat, making them more in line with other ranged careers.

And if stacking HtL is an issue, just tweak the skill a bit to be non-stackable or a bit less powerful. Why being so harshly against this idea, do you fear that much facing 5% more disrupt on average ?

[Fenris78]

Are they getting 10% to both from a single tactic? If so, surely that's a bug? Or do mean they are spending 2 tactic slots to get the 10% to both as intended?[/

I'm afraid it's currently not a bug, but how game is working ; "Chance to crit" stat is applying to all your skills, being damage or healing.
As for example, crit buff from Knight tactic (Dirty Tricks) of SW one (Leading shots) are affecting all crits from every skill.
Even Bullseye is getting 20% more healing crit on "Blood-Soaked War" SW's tactic, same for SM crit tactic on group-healing.

So 10% "chance to crit" tactic is (still ?) increasing both crits on enemies AND heal crits on allies, for AM and Sham.
Otherwise this has been changed but I'm not aware of this, long time not playing AM.

For Zealot/RP, the compromise is that they are either doing healing or damage (well... "damage") and the stats for one role go to **** when in the other role. It cannot weave back and forth between the two and Harbinger/Breaking has a chunky cooldown. That, and Zealots/RP specs are very very much tied to their tactics which prevents them from being able to do all the cool healing stuff and all the cool damage stuff in one build. This is much different to AM/Shaman where most of their tools are tied to abilities having secondary effects and tactics are a relatively minor part of the build (in comparison to how much utility is on their abilities).

Do you think that merging the stats on renown would make AM/Shaman overbearing in 12v12? 24v24? Or is this more for solo/duo where they are already busted anyway?

If (hypothetically speaking) renown - and only renown - for healing and magic was merged, what changes would need to be made to the AM/Shaman to compensate if it proves to much of a buff for them?

The potential issues I see here if magic and heal crit would be merged :
- Creating imbalances between melee healers, who cannot "switch" on the fly like the others and need to hit enemy to heal.
Of course they will need to spec either melee crit OR Heal crit, but they will greatly suffer from the comparison, even if they are inherently more durable with their defenses and medium armor.
- The caster healers will benefit from best of both worlds without having to make choices and sacrifices. As you mentioned, RP/Zeal mechanic is balanced around not being able to benefit fully from the two specs, with mixed trees alleviating abit the issue (you have at least some mastery points into offensive spells, no matter what spec you choose).
- As for AM/Sham, the issue is the +25% damage tactic, wich will need to be removed (currently needs to, but will be far worse with self-buffing mechanic AND crit to everything), or these already overperforming DPS specs will benefit too much from crits, that will make unkillable roaming monsters, even worse than they are now (sham especially).

[Zxul]

Being in this game for about seven years now, I'm pretty much aware of how things are working, thank you .

It impresses me to no end that after 7 years of playing I had to explain to you how htl works.

Difference is when you equip your armor, you get decent amounts of "passive" damage reduction against physical damage, while you cannot do that for magical resistances, unless you invest much more into them.

Like 3 ring slots dedicated to specific magical resistances (purple lv 39 rings for 2 resistances or The Winds set), liniment (wich takes you the noly liniment slot you have) or a fellow (and grouped) support class like Knight/Chosen.

So your armor is mitigating pretty much enough physical damage without much effort (as soon you use armor potion that it), but for some reason to get similar level of magical protection, you need specific items and significant sacrifices to your offensive power ?

A full caster sov + armor pot means 2 k total armor on caster. Enlighten me, how much physical mitigation do you think that provides, and how that translates into "decent amounts of "passive" damage reduction against physical damage" and "your armor is mitigating pretty much enough physical damage without much effort". Plz be detailed, should be extremely interesting.

While casters can just pump up their Intelligence, put every point of renown into defensive stats, and deal their full damage against almost everyone ?

And while at it, also how much dmg do you think a caster which put every point of renown into defensive stats will do. So far while playing the game since live I haven't met for example a single bw/sorc who didn't put renown into crit, so your explanation about how they should be playing the game correctly should be extremely enlightening.

With my proposed solution,

Considering you seem to have no idea about how classes work, except "casters OP nerf", somehow I'm a bit less than delighted about any kind of solution coming from you.

And if stacking HtL is an issue, just tweak the skill a bit to be non-stackable or a bit less powerful. Why being so harshly against this idea, do you fear that much facing 5% more disrupt on average ?

Ahh so you not only want to nerf casters, you also want to nerf tanks while at it. Any chance you also got something prepared for the healers, after all all classes should have some fun coming their way?

[gebajger]

AM and Shaman already got the 10% crit tactic wich is working for both heal and damage hits, really no need to blend the two crit from renown into one.

Not sure what you're talking about, AM/Shamy have healcrit and magic crit tactics, they're 2 things, none of them give crit for both.
Yes, master of force works on all attacks, melee inculded (yay, melee dps AM!), but it wont affect healcrit.

[Farrul]

And while at it, also how much dmg do you think a caster which put every point of renown into defensive stats will do. So far while playing the game since live I haven't met for example a single bw/sorc who didn't put renown into crit, so your explanation about how they should be playing the game correctly should be extremely enlightening.

Still being dishonest eh?

The caster does not need invest into a secondary dps stat - weapon skill - since it get all the penetration it will ever need from the fact the that resistance in this game is weak, it get a super strong resistance debuff. Disrupt is basically a none- existent stat on everyone not holding a shield / or channeling to protect allies.

As fenris already told you, Engineer need to invest into weapon skill for singletarget damage, your solo roaming Magus does not, you are free to invest into crit, more toughness whatever. Of course you know all this but being honest is not your intention, is it? Remaining OP likely is.

[Zxul]

And while at it, also how much dmg do you think a caster which put every point of renown into defensive stats will do. So far while playing the game since live I haven't met for example a single bw/sorc who didn't put renown into crit, so your explanation about how they should be playing the game correctly should be extremely enlightening.

Still being dishonest eh?

The caster does not need invest into a secondary dps stat - weapon skill - since it get all the penetration it will ever need from the fact the that resistance in this game is weak, it get a super strong resistance debuff. Disrupt is basically a none- existent stat on everyone not holding a shield / or channeling to protect allies.

As fenris already told you, Engineer need to invest into weapon skill for singletarget damage, your solo roaming Magus does not, you are free to invest into crit, more toughness whatever. Of course you know all this but being honest is not your intention, is it? Remaining OP likely is.

Interesting. So anyone being able to get 40% magic mitigation in a selection of ways- buffs, resist lini, Winds set- including after those "super strong resistance debuffs", is weak. While a caster in full sov with armor pot- 2 k total armor- after base 1 k armor debuff, and vs say a baseline 400 ws, having 16% or so mitigation, is strong. Just to be clear, what was your grade in base math back in school? Seems relevant for some reason.

"Disrupt is basically a none- existent"- interesting, lets take a healer, a modest 700 will. 21% disrupt from will + 18% disrupt from renown, total 39% disrupt before any disrupt on equipment. For some reason seems to be a bit more than non existent. Then we can also talk about all the tank disrupt tactics, which also stack with renown.

"on everyone not holding a shield / or channeling to protect allies."- enlighten me, which part of "tanks buff dodge/ disr on anyone behind him stacking up to 45% total buff" have you missed, or was especially hard to understand for you? But you know what, lets start actually balancing things. Obviously, that means htl now should also buff parry on everyone by up to 45%, we want casters and mdps to be balanced after all.