AM/Shaman and General Balance.

[Einherja]

Having 3900 wounds sounds very low for a lvl 25, the gear can't be so good.

Wow, with 3,9k wounds you breaking through the hardcap! I just have about 600. Give me that "not so good gear" plz

[kkprfx]

Having 3900 wounds sounds very low for a lvl 25, the gear can't be so good.

Wow, with 3,9k wounds you breaking through the hardcap! I just have about 600. Give me that "not so good gear" plz

But 3.9k hp is low for r25

[Sulorie]

Having 3900 wounds sounds very low for a lvl 25, the gear can't be so good.

Wow, with 3,9k wounds you breaking through the hardcap! I just have about 600. Give me that "not so good gear" plz

Git gud then. ^_^
I guess all should know, that health was meant, not wounds stat.
3,9k hp is really low.

[witchdoctor]

since no destro is talking and only order is whining on forums ill give it a go.

Made my day

[Tesq]

Here an exemplification as am/sh meccanoc work and why the op have some point..

If you have 5 stack of heal then the next 5 dmg stuff you do recive willp as int, yes you lack crit but still you are able to perform or swap to dps mode with out any significant investiment addind dmg when you supppse not to (still benefith from enemy chance to be crit).

The problem of sh/am in heal mode supppse to be lifetaps landing on target. Atm the heal am/sh are indeed doing dmg valies they supppse not to.
Lifetaps stuff like balance essence work very well instead.

Hit something should not translate in do dmg tought

The opposite is true for dps am /sh aswell as they are able to switch to heal.mode and cast 5 group heals if required and profit from the core hide 10% crit chance all healer have(which make easier to crit a group heal than 1 st dmg skill).

Again its the stats conversion to hit there.

The stats conversion or anyway the lack of stats was again related to hit stuff with life tap in heal mode, since life taps are 20% harder to block/disrupt now there is no need for stats conversion. That part of meccanic is a "bit" flawled and good ppl know how to profit from it.
Yes is few dmg /heal more compared to what they should do but it's still dmg/heal that should not be there (few...im same cases i saw not bad scoreboard and in this case there is not the aoe deus ex macchina to save the appereance)

Aka focus with 2 melee then add 5 offensive skill from am/sh with are coevalent to 5 sKill assist from an off tank. Your 6vs 6 balance became 7vs6 balance.

Stats conversion should be removed and both willp and int should increase lifetaps.

Regarding dmgof pure dps am/sh use 2 tali slot man.....

[witchdoctor]

Yea you are right, i do that too on my archmage, when i have 5 dmg stacks i spam 5 groupheals because my AP-pool is 50'000.

As a healer the skill "balance essence" is pretty nice, cuz' when you heal you can do it while moving, but there is baseheal on the skill witch is affected by willower. The damage on that skill is so low, you will deal more dmg with a RP/Zealot glowing hands.

And as a "wanna be" dps AM your heal is pretty weak. while you are kiting you cannot cast groupheal or 2s singleheal.. and the skill
"healing" does a hot witch periodicly tics for 50 health and the base heal is like 200 Only thing you can do is shielding and cleasing (therefor i rum cleanse tactic on dps AM) So talking about 7v6 is a total BS

[Sulorie]

This happens when people argue about a class they don't understand.

[Nidwin]

DPS Am's are even worse than JoeSixpack WL's as it takes them longer to kill you. On the flipside the desto zerg/blob will hunt any poor solo or lost Am up to Altdorf, if possible, now. Destro wb-leaders just have to be patient and accept the fact that those Am's have to die and there's no way around it.

Armor-Piercing Rounds (the 25% armor ignore Engie skill) cooldown can be reduced, in my opinion, to 32s from the 60s. If the 60s CD mentioned in the Career builder is up to date and correct.
Order has only one "dedicated" magical rdps (BW) so they can certainly use a second option vs high armored stacking destro toons.
With the Engie's nasty ranged AA with a gun (typical Riffleman if I'm correct) they have now 2 ranged options BW (magical) + Engie (Physical) vs destro Magus + Sorc (both magical).
Just need a decent boost for both Engie and Magus middle tree (not that hard imo) and we're good to go.

That BW bomding stuff is it based on Ruin of Destruction, aoe 180 wounds debuff as mentioned on the Career builder? I'm still not certain what makes that bombing so efficient in the lakes.

[Illiyara]

Here an exemplification as am/sh meccanoc work and why the op have some point..

If you have 5 stack of heal then the next 5 dmg stuff you do recive willp as int, yes you lack crit but still you are able to perform or swap to dps mode with out any significant investiment addind dmg when you supppse not to (still benefith from enemy chance to be crit).

This is not quite how the mechanic works. All it does is increase the raw damage/healing you do from basic stats, but it doesn't give you more int or wp, so in your example, you will still get a lot of disrupt on your damage spells because of your low int. The stats you get from mechanic also don't give you quite as much damage as a dps AM would be. Compared to a dps AM, those 5 spells will be missing:
-damage from mastery points
-25% damage from divine fury
-10% crit from tactic, more from gear and renown
-10% strikethrough from tactic, more from int and gear
-more bonuses from tactics

With the mechanic, a heal AM can do some damage, but it's still far from dps spec. When it comes to damage, it's mostly useful to help seal the killing blow. Without the mechanic, your damage might as well not exist, and at best, you can use 5 empowered damage spells in a row. I think this is reasonable.

The problem of sh/am in heal mode supppse to be lifetaps landing on target. Atm the heal am/sh are indeed doing dmg valies they supppse not to.
Lifetaps stuff like balance essence work very well instead.

Hit something should not translate in do dmg tought

I'm not sure what you mean here. The mechanic does not increase the damage of lifetaps (it only increases their chance to hit). When the mechanic was reworked, AM/sham lifetaps were changed so their damage doesn't benefit from any stats, so they do almost negligible damage. Lifetaps are now just another way to heal.

The opposite is true for dps am /sh aswell as they are able to switch to heal.mode and cast 5 group heals if required and profit from the core hide 10% crit chance all healer have(which make easier to crit a group heal than 1 st dmg skill).

Again its the stats conversion to hit there.

The stats conversion or anyway the lack of stats was again related to hit stuff with life tap in heal mode, since life taps are 20% harder to block/disrupt now there is no need for stats conversion. That part of meccanic is a "bit" flawled and good ppl know how to profit from it.
Yes is few dmg /heal more compared to what they should do but it's still dmg/heal that should not be there (few...im same cases i saw not bad scoreboard and in this case there is not the aoe deus ex macchina to save the appereance)

A dps AM's healing with the mechanic is "ok", but still quite far from a heal AM. You get buffed stat contribution, but will lack:
-20% healing because you have divine fury slotted, more from mastery points
-10% healcrit from tactic, more from gear and renown
-desperation tactic (40% healing when HP is below 25%)
-AP regeneration from tactics

And as before, you need the mechanic for this, otherwise your heals are truly crap.

I do get high damage in SC as dps AM, but there is a lot of AoE damage or useless dot damage included there. When the other side lacks heals, I'll get lots of killing blows, too, otherwise most of that damage just gets grouphealed or hotted. Overall, dps AMs can put out a lot of damage, but I'd say they still lack the real killing power of true rdps because their damage is not bursty, so they need the utility to compensate.

Aka focus with 2 melee then add 5 offensive skill from am/sh with are coevalent to 5 siill assist from an off tank. Yoir 6vs 6 balance became 7vs6 balance.

I'm not sure what you mean here, but it sounds like you think AM/sham can dps and heal at the same time. This is not true since lifetaps were changed. You can only cast one thing at once, your offensive power is weaker than a true dps, and your heals will still be significantly weaker than a specced healer and limited by mechanic charges. Imo, AM/sham are fine atm.

[live4treasure]

Small correction to the above and further comments.

Healer AM/Sh gets a 25% damage boost for instant cast spells, just like DPS AM/Sh gets the same boost for instant healing spells.

The optimal damage rotation for a healer, if you ever have time to use it in an even fight, is 3 DoTs -> Radiant Lance/Brain Buster -> Searing Touch/Bunch o' Waagh. This rotation utilizes all 5 Tranquility stacks, and out of the 5 spells used 4 of them recieve the 25% damage boost which effectively makes up for not having Divine Fury slotted. 3 DoTs and Searing Touch all recieve the 25% boost.

As for AM/Sh healing, as a rr 79 DPS AM main I can say that in my opinion there is room for the outgoing healing to be toned down by at least 10%. The truth is that it doesn't come into play as much as you might think for 6v6, if it does, it usually means your team is outclassed by the enemy. So the main place your off-healing is used is RVR roaming when your premade is fighting against overwhelming odds or in pug scenarios. The class is justifiably known to be a pugstomper because in a disorganized environment where everyone is taking a lot of random damage, AM's short bursts of high healing becomes too strong to have on a class that can also put out a decent amount of single target damage.

In a 6v6 environment however what an AM can feasibly bring to the team in terms of healing is Lambent Aura, lifetap dot, shield of saphery and cleanse. If you ever have to stop and hardcast heals, even if they are empowered, this means you are not putting out pressure, which creates more windows of opportunity for the enemy tanks and dps to use their CC abilities and debuffs offensively and not defensively, which in turn enables them to pressure your melee line and eventually create a window of opportunity to engage onto your backline and force the enemy to kite. From that point the fight is often a downward spiral. The short of it is that a few hots on your melee dps or tanks is good, but in a competetive environment a DPS AM lives and dies by its ability to force the enemy team onto their backfoot with damage.

The purpose of this post is to dispell some misconceptions I see being thrown around here. My personal consensus is that a DPS AM could stand to gain more uptime on their main DPS abilities to lessen the 15 second gap during which it puts out roughly 70% less damage but also lose some of its outgoing healing. It would make bringing one into a team much less superfluous, while also reducing what seems to be the main reason it feels so oppressive in pugs. I don't know much about DPS Sham, so I won't say much about them.

Another comment I'd like to make is that often times people see a DPS AM high on scoreboards in a pug scenario and think "Wow, that's overpowered!" or try and 1v1 the class, only to find out that an AM or Sham can just detaunt you and heal himself up with a series of cleanses and hots to counter your rotation, before killing you. The truth of the matter is, most of the AMs you often see do well in pug SCs are people that have been playing the class for a very long time now. The reason for that is that for the longest time it has been a horrible DPS class that wasn't actually worth playing seriously because it wasn't worth anything in any form of competetive play, so the few people that did decide to stick to it are the stubborn types. They most likely have close to BIS gear, high renown, know their class well enough to know how to deal with any situation presented to them and have great positioning.

There isn't really a stable competetive scene and they still aren't often accepted into premade groups, so they have no place to go other than pug SCs, but the truth is that if you bring any other DPS class of similar gear, renown and skill levels, you will see them perform just as well in the same situation that enables an AM to do so, and often times they will perform even better. However when you see a witch hunter do insane damage and score 20 DBs or a bright wizard do double the damage of anyone else and be top in death blows you think to yourself "Wow this guy is good", meanwhile when you see an AM, because it is a healer in your mind, you start thinking "Wow this class is OP!". If a more solid 6v6 scene existed and AMs were brought to a state where they would be a good class to have in a dps slot in most situations, you would instantly start seeing a lot less of these overgeared AMs in your pug scenarios, along with other overgeared classes.