Proposal to remove all barriers from scenarios

[calipso]

Spoiler:

Not to forget, that you can not disengage from that. If you send out people to "play the objective" they will overwhelm you and gain the momentum. Range premades can not be allowed to hide in spawns.

So here is an idea. If your melee train premade runs into a ranged group, and you don't want to deal with it ... Sit in spawn and surrender. Scenario over and you can go on and q for another.
It's ok, I can hear you reply already. But here's the thing.

If it is OK for you to put players into sitting in their spawn and surrendering, why is it not ok for you to sit in spawn and surrender? Because you play in a dedicated/guild premade? No excuse. You are not special. You should not be allowed to feed on players coming through the barrier so they do not get quitter debuff.

Why is it ok for dedicated 6 man and guild melee trains to slaughter pugs or 6 man groups of randoms, and not ok for ranged groups to slaughter you?

EDIT: Ranged is just another meta. Learn to deal with it!!!!! Do not penalize the majority of players instead to satisfy egos.

One thing is a match making issue. The other is a design issue. I have stated this before. Do not try to fix a match making issue with design changes. Fix the match making issue by fixing match making.

Don't you understand this? Spawn camping against ranged premades is not a matter of choice. That is how strong ranged in this game is when its played right. The only counter play there is, is push them away from their save space.

Honestly I don't see how discussing this any further will help the matter. You just want to have your opinion and everyone has to share it.

While i agree that there is a big problem with matchmaking, scenarios were meant to be mini maps based on Objectives, not a slaughter fiesta (we have Ranked for dead matches). Changing a concept only because people aren’t able to kill certain archetypes is wrong. The issue perhaps is balance abilities, not the game mode itself.
Spawn areas have always been a safety spot, back on live and for a period of time in RoR, where you had guards to keep it that way. But they were placed backwards and became useless figurines. That was the first mistake Devs made.
Objectives are ignored nowadays since the tendency is doing a meat grinder ending by a surrender, as the data thread showed us, thanks to barriers. Keep feeding or get a quitter is not a solution either.
Definition of “Scenarios” should be changed by now, it has lost all of its identity.
Let’s do another type of scenario, something like “classic scs”, without barriers and guards where they used to be, and check how populated it will be. Im going all in, i bet would be more popular than the current one.

[Garamore]

Thats a good idea - do barrier serps pass and non barrier serps pass and let the people choose!

[arturziomas]

+1 from me to OP, I'd add though that it would be best to make guards ranged and make sure they have 100% defences pass through, and that people killed by them provide 100% rewards.

[Everdin]

Melee groups farming on demand at a barrier = evil
Range groups farming on demand inside warcamp = just better

Is that your statement?

There are plenty of arguments against barriers, but this is pure bullshit

So DON'T spawn camp! What is hard to understand? You are asking that players be penalized because YOU and you dedicated or guild premade, can not deal with ranged players. If the ranged players follow, use the terrain to your advantage till you close into melee range. If you do not want to think, go sit in your spawn, surrender, and take the loss. I do not care about your success. I care about the success of the ENTIRE community. Not just guild melee train 6 man groups.

EDIT: Barriers and no guards only benefits a few. BUT it is bad for the majority of players in the game. What do you choose? Your melee train slaughtering one or two players at a time that have to come out of the barrier or get quitter debuff. Or what is good for entire community?

Please tell me more about me and my dedicated or guild premade, cause I don't know what you are talking about.

I already mentioned that barriers should be gone or implemented in another way, the only thing I say is you can't argue against one meta slaughter against another, thats just bigoted. If you don't want slaughter at the warcamps there must be system that simply make fighting at warcamps risky or difficult for both sides.
You want to camp -> deal with consequences
You want to fight back -> fight but don't hide in guards
You are sick of getting farmed and there is no recovery -> leave sc

[JohnnyWayne]

While i agree that there is a big problem with matchmaking, scenarios were meant to be mini maps based on Objectives, not a slaughter fiesta (we have Ranked for dead matches). Changing a concept only because people aren’t able to kill certain archetypes is wrong. The issue perhaps is balance abilities, not the game mode itself.
Spawn areas have always been a safety spot, back on live and for a period of time in RoR, where you had guards to keep it that way. But they were placed backwards and became useless figurines. That was the first mistake Devs made.
Objectives are ignored nowadays since the tendency is doing a meat grinder ending by a surrender, as the data thread showed us, thanks to barriers. Keep feeding or get a quitter is not a solution either.
Definition of “Scenarios” should be changed by now, it has lost all of its identity.
Let’s do another type of scenario, something like “classic scs”, without barriers and guards where they used to be, and check how populated it will be. Im going all in, i bet would be more popular than the current one.

Yes I see where you are coming from and I can agree with that. I prefer SCs to be objective based aswell. I would consider that a design issue, so my first idea would be to redesign the reward structure accordingly to incentivice people playing the objective. This should be part of a great SC redesign initiative that also fixes match making and gives trancapency to queue states.

Still, as a melee centric party you are foced to push ranges hard. What if, the barriers could be passed by its team, as long as you do not have the spawn buff? And they get a debuff when they go back inside that prevents them from exiting again for 20 sec. I really hate designing a spawn camp mechanic but I see no other way around it. Alternative might be to increase the damage reduction on the Spawn buff to 99% or maybe even 100%, i dont know.

If you don't want slaughter at the warcamps there must be system that simply make fighting at warcamps risky or difficult for both sides.
You want to camp -> deal with consequences
You want to fight back -> fight but don't hide in guards
You are sick of getting farmed and there is no recovery -> leave sc

That is pretty well put.

[Morradin]

One thing is a match making issue. The other is a design issue. I have stated this before. Do not try to fix a match making issue with design changes. Fix the match making issue by fixing match making.

Don't you understand this? Spawn camping against ranged premades is not a matter of choice. That is how strong ranged in this game is when its played right. The only counter play there is, is push them away from their save space.

Honestly I don't see how discussing this any further will help the matter. You just want to have your opinion and everyone has to share it.

That there is no proper matchmaking is something we ALL agree on. Well ... except for those that think slaughtering one player at a time with their six is good play style.

My opinion is simple, and if you do not agree I do not know what to say...
What is good for the community, good for the majority of the player base, is the only thing that counts. Period. If you dont agree with that ... then why are you here?
And yes, getting rid of barriers, bringing back guard and siege weapon damage, is good for the community.

Barriers, no guard damage and no siege damage only benefit melee train meta. And that is wrong!

[Everdin]

I think steps are atm the best way to keep it balanced, if you push the enemy to deep you have to deal with not reachable healers and rdps, but if you pull back to play objective the other side can decide if they go down and fight or stay safe, if they engage, they have to fight again and no back and forth hopping in guards

[calipso]

Spoiler:

While i agree that there is a big problem with matchmaking, scenarios were meant to be mini maps based on Objectives, not a slaughter fiesta (we have Ranked for dead matches). Changing a concept only because people aren’t able to kill certain archetypes is wrong. The issue perhaps is balance abilities, not the game mode itself.
Spawn areas have always been a safety spot, back on live and for a period of time in RoR, where you had guards to keep it that way. But they were placed backwards and became useless figurines. That was the first mistake Devs made.
Objectives are ignored nowadays since the tendency is doing a meat grinder ending by a surrender, as the data thread showed us, thanks to barriers. Keep feeding or get a quitter is not a solution either.
Definition of “Scenarios” should be changed by now, it has lost all of its identity.
Let’s do another type of scenario, something like “classic scs”, without barriers and guards where they used to be, and check how populated it will be. Im going all in, i bet would be more popular than the current one.

Yes I see where you are coming from and I can agree with that. I prefer SCs to be objective based aswell. I would consider that a design issue, so my first idea would be to redesign the reward structure accordingly to incentivice people playing the objective. This should be part of a great SC redesign initiative that also fixes match making and gives trancapency to queue states.

Still, as a melee centric party you are foced to push ranges hard. What if, the barriers could be passed by its team, as long as you do not have the spawn buff? And they get a debuff when they go back inside that prevents them from exiting again for 20 sec. I really hate designing a spawn camp mechanic but I see no other way around it. Alternative might be to increase the damage reduction on the Spawn buff to 99% or maybe even 100%, i dont know.

If you don't want slaughter at the warcamps there must be system that simply make fighting at warcamps risky or difficult for both sides.
You want to camp -> deal with consequences
You want to fight back -> fight but don't hide in guards
You are sick of getting farmed and there is no recovery -> leave sc

That is pretty well put.

Imho i don’t think implementing any kind of buffs or debuffs are beneficial for either side, let me elaborate a bit. I am going to take as an example Highpass Cemetery: buff was a good concept in the beginning for the underdog, if they capture Objectives when the realm with advantage was pushing the spawn, you had a chance to flip the coin for a period of time thanks to the various exits scenario had, allowing you some sort of safe passage to do it, or small skirmish in order to get to the flag.
Once people started to get advantage of said buff, it turned into a big massacre. So the underdog adapted and kited back towards guards until the buff was over to then push again and keep fighting.
That was over after people complained about being killed by the strong realm getting benefit of it. Next step was moving guards backwards, to give the dominant realm more room to kill those remaining guys.
The buffs can be easily dodge, as i explained before, just kite a little bit backwards to push again and slaughter when is over.
I get that some archetypes are rough to kill and you have to push them hard, but again, reworking a whole game mode based on that should be forbidden, as “we are doing it for premades to not be afk” argument, which btw makes no sense at all, where is the logic on that, if you don’t want premades to be afk then open doors for them, not close them all.
This is my honest opinion, and i respect other’s as well. But instead to fix the core of the problem, they are just adding more, and it is getting rotten.
Remove every change that has been made to scenario, work on matchmaking and make it live. And once it is properly running, make fair changes and motivate player base and newers to keep that game mode alive, either rework on how Objectives affect the scenario or creating a different type of respawn.

[JohnnyWayne]

And yes, getting rid of barriers, bringing back guard and siege weapon damage, is good for the community.

Barriers, no guard damage and no siege damage only benefit melee train meta. And that is wrong!

I disagree with this. There is no melee meta anymore. We switched over to range meta around April / May. Did you miss the memo? 2SH + sorc and 2x SW + BW are king now. And you want them to be able to farm way better with your change.

Also, I really hope a fixed match maker is the holy grail people make it out to be. I am a strong supporter of a proper optimization algorithm, but this is a case of complex system and we won't know how it works out without trying. People are very creative to dodge systems and may abuse certan aspects of it.

[calipso]

Spoiler:

And yes, getting rid of barriers, bringing back guard and siege weapon damage, is good for the community.

Barriers, no guard damage and no siege damage only benefit melee train meta. And that is wrong!

I disagree with this. There is no melee meta anymore. We switched over to range meta around April / May. Did you miss the memo? 2SH + sorc and 2x SW + BW are king now. And you want them to be able to farm way better with your change.

Also, I really hope a fixed match maker is the holy grail people make it out to be. I am a strong supporter of a proper optimization algorithm, but this is a case of complex system and we won't know how it works out without trying. People are very creative to dodge systems and may abuse certan aspects of it.

Excuse me, but you got me confused . How can rdps farm way better if the purpose of barriers is for them to not kite back to spawn?
Personally i think the reworks affect both compositions in an equal manner