2h Choppa/slayer changes

[Sizer]

Yes there are a million threads about these classes but if their aoe trees (well namely slayers aoe tree) are ever nerfed they will need a better 2h tree to compensate, and thats what i want to bring up. Going to throw out some ideas, feel free to call them terrible or add your own.

#1. Wot rules/power through - I would change it to a new tactic that gives 25% chance to regain 25 rage and 25 ap on being crit (prob needs a max of 1 proc per second, at least on the ap). No it still wouldnt let you drop your rage while being focused (a must have for these specs imo), and it could even be considered a nerf, as you cant just spam one exhaustive after another (spellbreaker change below to make up for it), but itd add in some interesting counterplay and make the classes less spammy. Also ap seems like a useful reward for the drawback - if youre going to be this squishy ap management should be easy.

Pretty massive change here, and could end up being terrible, but ive always thought rage should fluctuate more in these builds instead of being at full 24/7, plus it would make more sense thematically - the more damage these classes are taking the more they can deal.

#2. Put spellbreaker on a cooldown but also buff it to make it work better with the above tactic. Best way would be to add an outgoing heal debuff and put it on a 10s cd (no more helpin should get a 10s cd too, if youre this squishy cd's should be low). You could even leave the absorb-removal on it, and give the choppa version a different minor effect (maybe an ap drain or something), just to keep them different.

Another pretty massive change, but necessary imo, even if power through is unchanged. The main downside is these classes could now double heal debuff someone with 100% up time - you could fix this by moving the incoming debuff to the 13 point ability in the other tree, but that would be an even bigger change, and honestly it wouldnt be that OP anyway considering how squishy these builds are (we/wh can already double debuff and that isnt generally considered op, right?)

Also, in line with the lower cds, id also be for tired already being 10s cd and 5s duration (shatter limbs should be the same too imo), but thats really stretching it, so il leave it at that and see what people think of changing spellbreaker/no more helpin first.

#3. Id also put wot rules/power through (regardless of them being changed or not) in place of determination/long lasta, and make no escape/wots da rush not require dw and be on a 10s cd. Those would give a decent reason to go with the aoe line as your second tree - you lose the heal debuff but gain a pretty good snare. This would more or less require SL to get a dw requirement, which i guess is a big change, but who cares, it needs one anyway, and most aoe slayers run dw already.

#4 Enervating blow/try an hurt me - Not specifically 2h abilities, but id do the following - Make undefendable on a 20s cd, but with a 5s duration. Another fairly big change, and would even be a bit of a nerf to non-2h builds, but it would make the skill more reliable like the knockdown is now.

#5 Also, well, this is just a flat out nerf, but id make the knockdowns 2s duration instead of 3. 3s is fine for dw builds like people use now, since you lose rage, but if 2h builds become better it will just be too much to have a 3s kd on a 20s cd with no other requirements.


Some simpler changes:

#6 Change violent impacts/wear em down to 100% chance to regain 50% of your rage. Would give a nice alternative for keeping rage even if power through is unchanged.

#7 Change the crit tactics to a flat 15% crit while using a 2h instead of just on certain abilities. Easy enough since it already gives 10% increased to be crit.

#8 Deathblow and weaklin killa to 10s cd. Simple change to put it in like with other finishers in game.

#9 Precarious assault and reckless blow - Did anyone ever understand why it gives you 5% more to be crit instead of your enemy, and yet doesnt do more base damage than slasha? Id change it to give 5% (or even 10) to be crit to you and your enemy to make it a decent alternative spammable

#10 Keep on choppin - Not 2h, but as a 2h build can get it, id change it from ap gain (useless) to morale (sort of useful). Not sure on the numbers, or if it should be a flat gain or just simply give +x% morale gain for 10s. Or something like that.

[Feidam]

Not saying their 2handed trees might need help but shouldn't they test he nerf first so people can see the dps difference when it is not being overshadowed by an over performing tree? Nice thoughts on the issue though.

[Sizer]

Not saying their 2handed trees might need help but shouldn't they test he nerf first so people can see the dps difference when it is not being overshadowed by an over performing tree? Nice thoughts on the issue though.

Youre not wrong, these are mostly just rough ideas that will need to change if/when the aoe trees get changed. But seeing how a common defense of ID is "but thats our only good spec!", I thought it might be good to at least start discussing it seriously in its own thread.

[TenTonHammer]

First off there is nothing wrong with choppa 2h, in fact when in premades it is the preferred playstyle

and neither is there anything wrong with slayer 2h either, it is simply overshadowed by how strong skravenslayer/ID is much like how monstro on mara is a good tree but it is overshadowed by brut+ sav

No more helpin is a really lack luster ability considering that destro has acess to a no cooldown 50%+ outgoing healdebuff on bg

id rather have 10s duration and 30s cd on my try n hurt me / enervating blow and be smart and strafe my enemy to hit them from the back or side

i absolutely oppose changes to the KD, it is an unnecessary suggestion

AP suggestion also feels unnecessary especially for choppa since we have keep on choppin and furthermore late game that ability is also made pointless due to all the ap regen gear, ap post and ap regen rate increase pots.


changes to no escape/wots da rush also feel uncessary 2h choppa or slayer will never touch AoE tree b/c choppa AoE tree is **** and because both need to go up left tree and spec HD and stuff

moving Heal debuff to 13 points would be a flabbergastingly awful change

b/c inc > outgoing

a slayer who specs Spellbreaker, devestate, cleft in twain power through, rampage would not have enough points to get inc hd futhermore IB has out going hd that dok cannot clense without m2

like wise with choppa who once agian does not need outing HD with bg

WE/ double debuff relizes on RNG to proc kiss and WH has to constantly blow resource with execution to maintain debuff

[Sizer]

First off there is nothing wrong with choppa 2h, in fact when in premades it is the preferred playstyle

and neither is there anything wrong with slayer 2h either, it is simply overshadowed by how strong skravenslayer/ID is much like how monstro on mara is a good tree but it is overshadowed by brut+ sav

No more helpin is a really lack luster ability considering that destro has acess to a no cooldown 50%+ outgoing healdebuff on bg

id rather have 10s duration and 30s cd on my try n hurt me / enervating blow and be smart and strafe my enemy to hit them from the back or side

i absolutely oppose changes to the KD, it is an unnecessary suggestion

AP suggestion also feels unnecessary especially for choppa since we have keep on choppin and furthermore late game that ability is also made pointless due to all the ap regen gear, ap post and ap regen rate increase pots.


changes to no escape/wots da rush also feel uncessary 2h choppa or slayer will never touch AoE tree b/c choppa AoE tree is **** and because both need to go up left tree and spec HD and stuff

moving Heal debuff to 13 points would be a flabbergastingly awful change

b/c inc > outgoing

a slayer who specs Spellbreaker, devestate, cleft in twain power through, rampage would not have enough points to get inc hd futhermore IB has out going hd that dok cannot clense without m2

like wise with choppa who once agian does not need outing HD with bg

WE/ double debuff relizes on RNG to proc kiss and WH has to constantly blow resource with execution to maintain debuff

I get what youre saying, and yea, theres nothing "wrong" with those trees but i disagree that they dont need any work. It does a lot of damage, sure, and it works in premades, but the preferred spec for choppas in premades on live was still dw, and thats what im basing this on.

No escape/wots da rush change is intended to address it being useless to spec the aoe tree for utility, its not enough but at least its a start, i couldnt think of anything more other than changing SL/chop fasta (which is a big issue to discuss on its own), but its something to be considered

Kd change, well, lots of ppl will disagree with this along with u, but i still think it has to happen, especially as its core + no positional req + 20s cd.

moving the inc heal debuff was just an idea to balance out a lower cd outgoing debuff, but i dont think its as terrible as you think. Having heal debuffs on 13 point abilities would force dps to make real choices about what tree they take, instead of just having one spec where they get everything, and i think thatd be awesome. Ofc alone its a bad idea, but if it happens to every class (in the distant future) it would make the game a lot more interesting

Also not every group runs a bg/ib - having powerful debuffs on only one class isnt a great idea as it makes that class more or less mandatory in groups. Thats why i want to give it to slayers and make the choppa one a lower cd. Again same reason - depending on if you have a ib/bg in your group or not will affect what spec you chose, unlike now where you get it all in one spec.

[TenTonHammer]

Pushing hdbuff to 13 pts would only really affect/punish slayers as choppas already go up to furious choppin anyway so this would be nothing for them and they would just use the same spec for dw as 2h

13 pts on slayer means that you would not be able to grab rampage nor channeled heal if they want to pick inc hd, shatter limbs and ID and if they dont go HD then that means ordo parties will have to resort to SW/WH/or BW for inc HD

2H choppa more than has its merits in premades on live with single target shatter limbs and 3k crits or so

Do realize that the kd blows you rage and IB has core kd 3s duration and 10s cd and BG has core kd with 5s duration and 20s cd, should we nerf them too?

[Tiggo]

changing blockstrikethrough with parrystrikethrough with 2h weapon as suggested in the wp grace thread for wp imho is all change needed right now. 2h slayer is not that underpowered that it needs theses drastic changes.

[Sizer]

Pushing hdbuff to 13 pts would only really affect/punish slayers as choppas already go up to furious choppin anyway so this would be nothing for them and they would just use the same spec for dw as 2h

13 pts on slayer means that you would not be able to grab rampage nor channeled heal if they want to pick inc hd, shatter limbs and ID and if they dont go HD then that means ordo parties will have to resort to SW/WH/or BW for inc HD

2H choppa more than has its merits in premades on live with single target shatter limbs and 3k crits or so

Do realize that the kd blows you rage and IB has core kd 3s duration and 10s cd and BG has core kd with 5s duration and 20s cd, should we nerf them too?

No offense but i guess you didnt get it. I suggested moving it so slayers specifically couldnt get heal debuff + rampage + ID + Sl. It would be a good thing if groups had to resort to using a different class to get heal debuffs + ID instead of every group just running 2 slayers all the time.

And I know these builds have mertis and do fine in premades. That doesnt mean they are perfect classes that dont need any work. No class is without mediocre tactics/abilities, and just because they can perform fine in premades it doesnt mean we cant suggest ideas for tweaking them.

Also, bgs and ibs are tanks. They dont have charge to rush up to something and kd it, and it isnt undefendable. And the bg one requires a block, 100 hate, and a shield. Seems different enough to warrant a longer duration.

[Sizer]

changing blockstrikethrough with parrystrikethrough with 2h weapon as suggested in the wp grace thread for wp imho is all change needed right now. 2h slayer is not that underpowered that it needs theses drastic changes.

Agreed, that would make these specs a lot more valuable, and thats probably the only change needed right now, ie. in the coming months, and before other classes get other buffs/tweaks.

Still, if the devs are going to make balance changes, thats going to include skavenslayer changes, and by then itd be nice to have something interesting for slayers to spec other than hitting spellbreaker over and over and over and over...

[Scrilian]

As someone who used to run 2h SB slayer quite a lot back on the live servers, I have to say these are the most stupidest proposed changes I've ever seen, no offence. Just a list of random wacky ideas for a very strong class with a variety of strong builds

Spoiler:

#1. Wot rules/power through - I would change it to a new tactic that gives 25% chance to regain 25 rage and 25 ap on being crit (prob needs a max of 1 proc per second, at least on the ap). No it still wouldnt let you drop your rage while being focused (a must have for these specs imo), and it could even be considered a nerf, as you cant just spam one exhaustive after another (spellbreaker change below to make up for it), but itd add in some interesting counterplay and make the classes less spammy. Also ap seems like a useful reward for the drawback - if youre going to be this squishy ap management should be easy.

Pretty massive change here, and could end up being terrible, but ive always thought rage should fluctuate more in these builds instead of being at full 24/7, plus it would make more sense thematically - the more damage these classes are taking the more they can deal.

The main reason almost every 2h build uses this tactic - is the control over your rage it provides, meaning you can use your stun, wounds debuff, anti-crit whenever you need them, without having downtime and losing 50%+ of your damage - even without spellbreaker. It is THE group build, heavily reliant on your healers and guard, where even AP is not an issue.
There is already flavourful "less spammy" version in the form of Violent Impacts, where you can enjoy your random anger management if you desire it. Don't see the reason for PT to be altered because it put you in red almost permanently and makes you an easy target outside guard.

Spoiler:

#2. Put spellbreaker on a cooldown but also buff it to make it work better with the above tactic. Best way would be to add an outgoing heal debuff and put it on a 10s cd (no more helpin should get a 10s cd too, if youre this squishy cd's should be low). You could even leave the absorb-removal on it, and give the choppa version a different minor effect (maybe an ap drain or something), just to keep them different.

Another pretty massive change, but necessary imo, even if power through is unchanged. The main downside is these classes could now double heal debuff someone with 100% up time - you could fix this by moving the incoming debuff to the 13 point ability in the other tree, but that would be an even bigger change, and honestly it wouldnt be that OP anyway considering how squishy these builds are (we/wh can already double debuff and that isnt generally considered op, right?)

Also, in line with the lower cds, id also be for tired already being 10s cd and 5s duration (shatter limbs should be the same too imo), but thats really stretching it, so il leave it at that and see what people think of changing spellbreaker/no more helpin first.

Firstly why should inc. heal debuff be a 13point ability - making it actually worse than most heal debuffs, with its just having 10 sec duration on 10 sec CD. This is a very hard nerf to almost every build.
Making spellbreaker into a outgoing heal debuff would make order slayer based melee cleave incredibly strong with one SL with shatter limbs and the other with two debuffs, even if inc. debuff is 13points. Besides that change would make Axeman WL obsolete. SB is just a copy of Spine Crusher damage wise w/o the positional, but with a rage requirement.

Spoiler:

#3. Id also put wot rules/power through (regardless of them being changed or not) in place of determination/long lasta, and make no escape/wots da rush not require dw and be on a 10s cd. Those would give a decent reason to go with the aoe line as your second tree - you lose the heal debuff but gain a pretty good snare. This would more or less require SL to get a dw requirement, which i guess is a big change, but who cares, it needs one anyway, and most aoe slayers run dw already.

The snare ranges from 10% to 40% for 5sec on 30sec cd, which is very unreliable for a reason, that you should bring tank to provide aoe snares. Doubt that anyone would take it as 2h and some don't even run it as DW, tactic swap wouldn't help it much.

Spoiler:

#4 Enervating blow/try an hurt me - Not specifically 2h abilities, but id do the following - Make undefendable on a 20s cd, but with a 5s duration. Another fairly big change, and would even be a bit of a nerf to non-2h builds, but it would make the skill more reliable like the knockdown is now.

I don't know what knockdown has to do with Enervating blow, but nerfing the duration is harsh and would make this signature 10sec anti-crit ability barely noticeable - just for the fun of it?

Spoiler:

#5 Also, well, this is just a flat out nerf, but id make the knockdowns 2s duration instead of 3. 3s is fine for dw builds like people use now, since you lose rage, but if 2h builds become better it will just be too much to have a 3s kd on a 20s cd with no other requirements.

Skill is in line with other MDPS 3sec knockdowns, 3 sec duration on the 20 sec CD, and even a bit worse because it requires to be in the red to use it with undefendable as the upside. No reason to alter it.

Spoiler:

#6 Change violent impacts/wear em down to 100% chance to regain 50% of your rage. Would give a nice alternative for keeping rage even if power through is unchanged.

This is actually not that bad for a solo 2h builds, but I can't really see myself ever using it.

Spoiler:

#7 Change the crit tactics to a flat 15% crit while using a 2h instead of just on certain abilities. Easy enough since it already gives 10% increased to be crit.

Bombing would get real again

Spoiler:

#8 Deathblow and weaklin killa to 10s cd. Simple change to put it in like with other finishers in game.

Make it 20sec, 10s might be too strong for spellbreaker builds and the ability is one of the most hard hitting melee ones in the game, 30sec is just as fine.

Spoiler:

#9 Precarious assault and reckless blow - Did anyone ever understand why it gives you 5% more to be crit instead of your enemy, and yet doesnt do more base damage than slasha? Id change it to give 5% (or even 10) to be crit to you and your enemy to make it a decent alternative spammable

Ability is just a cheap way to dump your rage and one of the first abilities you get in the game. You really want to make it the new worse version of spellbreaker?

Spoiler:

#10 Keep on choppin - Not 2h, but as a 2h build can get it, id change it from ap gain (useless) to morale (sort of useful). Not sure on the numbers, or if it should be a flat gain or just simply give +x% morale gain for 10s. Or something like that.

Well this could be made into a copy of Rampage, but this would counter WH Repel Blasphemy too hard


Why Relentless Strike/Throat Slasha is not even mentioned here, being the one of the lowest hitting abilities with a laughable 3sec dot, and other mediocre dots in the middle tree. Or the Fierceness/Bring Da Pain making you 45%+ to be critically hit and providing only 3-5% armour penenetration. Or Even The Odds/Come and Git It toughness buff being more often than not useless with its scaling and 10sec duration. Or the worst detaunt in the game with the ridiculous 50AP cost.
I'm not saying SL/CH should get buffs and these abilities change and might sound a bit buttmad at the proposed changes to my personal favourite class-build combo in the game, but these classes were very strong in the tier4+ game on the live servers that I don't see the reasons to alter then too much, because they are very group dependant, have a way to be countered by punting guard or even just hard train them while they are in berserk, for example.
There is going to be a new forum with the balance discussions and I might make a thread there about both SL/CH and all of their abilitie and the issues there.
Should buff the other underperforming MDPS instead