Fort Suggestion & Feedback

[Stophy22]

Forts....

are not fun. They simply aren't fun. What is fun? Defending them to some extent. Sitting still in less than 30 frames channeling aoe getting massive kills is way more exciting than attacking... which is throwing yourself into the equivalent of a black-hole because the green-bar of life you have gets sucked away within a second. The large scale pvp in this game isn't the enjoyable parts, imo. I'm not saying it isn't fun so don't get angry at me! It does include everyone though so I'll commend it for that, because a lot more than 6/12/24 people play the game and they should have a place to do so. Frame-rates dip extremely hard when you get that many people in one place, mixed with character collision it gets pretty rough in keep takes and fort. But again it brings us back to the question; What is fun?

City.

In a typical city siege you have 24v24, balanced sides (for people premading), and 3 stages that can go a number of different ways. It includes most people but sometimes you don't get in and that sucks but next time, right? I believe for endgame content city fights can be used as a good guide. They are interesting because no city siege is the same as other city seiges, unless you choose to play it the same way each time. (only talking about IC for sake of confusion) During stage 2 you can rush their champions or play a defensive game and escort yours. During stage one you can rush mid after taking slaneesh or khorne. There is a diversity to the tactics you can implement to make the game fun and do the city siege how you feel is best. This is good, as long as there is not a "best" way to do the city siege it is not a problem. Because if there was a "best" way to do it, others would quickly find that and it would be considered wrong to play the SC any other way than the "best" way, just look at nordenwatch for example. (not hating on nordenwatch just using it as an example)

So with the feedback above I give the suggestion below:

Forts & City.

Make forts similar to cities. Make it an area where 24v24 or 48v48 can prove themselves vs other 24v24 or 48v48 and the number of instances won dictates if the fort is taken or not. Because currently that is a really cool factor imo for city's but it doesn't do anything worthy of note. It does something, it just doesn't matter what it does. Maybe if you lost the city siege prices would inflate x amount or whatever but that's not the point of this post.

So we have option A and B, I think both would be a good idea.

A

Spoiler:

You split forts into 3 instances, so its a best of 3. either 24vs24 or 48vs48. Something a little bit smaller than 250v190 because this is the issue, large numbers vs large numbers. Then whoever wins 2 of the 3, order or destro, wins the entire fort. And the pairing locks or goes back to middle the same way it works now. Obviously people will need ample time to que and create groups so a similar 10minutes prep before the que -just like in cities- is required so people can make groups and get organized, take the time of stage 1(the current stage 1 of forts where you just wait for the door to go down) and add it to the prep time if needed as well since its just waiting for door to bust down and most people just search for groups during this stage anyway. Limit this to rank40rr55 since this is invader armor and its the start of endgame content, Anyone who complains should be working their way toward vanq gear or getting a high enough RR in the zones to get into forts.

B

Spoiler:

Same thing as option A but you mimic city queing exactly. So it creates as many instances that can be filled and the majority winner of these instances decides who wins the fort or if it gets reset back to middle pairing. Since more instances can open up with this way of doing things you could lower the requirements to rank40rr50 so more people can create more instances and experience the content. If there is a tie because an even number of instances open up and are won/lost, tie goes to the defender-city rules.

Whichever one is chosen I think they both would work well. option B might be easier on a work-level basis of thinking since it mimics cities almost exactly. Now what changes to the actual content of forts would I suggest? It can't be exactly the same as a keep take, we already have plenty of that happening in the zones. So again, follow the basis set by citys. Make it a 3 staged instance where the same rules apply as city (winner of final stage wins instance, regardless of other stages) simply because Idk what the playerbase would like to experience in a fort. I'd be happy if forts are changed to instance based keep takes with A&B options above.

Spoiler:

All of this was done using Butchers pass as a control since its very irregular architecture for BO's and Landscape, I figured if it can happen here it can happen anywhere.

Stage I

Spoiler:

Currently stage one in fort takes are free. The ram auto spawns and breaks the door down automagically. This is a problem cause its just a waiting game to form WB's and Groups. Well if A and B listed above are implemented then we don't need to wait around anymore and form groups, it should already be done. So Stage 1 should be as so:

1.)15 minutes to break down the door and capture a BO.

Win condition for attackers: Capture the BO inside the fort.
Win condition for defenders: Prevent the BO from being capped.
2 minute waiting period til stage starts.

This is very similiar to your stereotypical keep take, but you only get 3 rams. This allows attackers to split up their force and use different tactics. They can attack 2-3 doors separately, or spend all 3 rams on one door, whatever tactics you desire. The objective of this stage is to break in. If a keep door is broken down, +5 minutes to time of stage. Attackers will have single target cannons they can use in their warcamps to shoot whatever on the wall. defenders will also have cannons. 2 aoe cannons and 2 single target cannons on the walls. Single target cannons will be on the furthest point of the walls while AOE cannons are closer to oil room. Defenders will have 3 oils they can place, same idea as ram. Each Siege engine has 50 shots. Defenders if they die will spawn in their Fort with no healer and 3 minute wounds debuff. Defenders get until the wounds debuff is maxed(5 deaths) until they are "captured" and put in the jail instead of respawning at keep so you can't continually suicide wall jump the ram to win with no repercussions. There are no jailbreaks in stage 1. And don't forget you have to capture the BO (5 second channel since its close to enemy spawn, and there are 3 "cannons on it that you have to break similar to city.)

With the explanation above the goal im trying to achieve is to add in enough anomalies that it won't make sense to lets say "only use the cannons" or "only atk one door" or "just sit on cannons". Using all of the tools at your disposal will both help you defend and take the keep. And will probably help teach players in normal zones like DW/Praag/etc. on how to correctly take keeps with siege weaponry and what each class should be doing. But that's up to the playerbase. Also what's stopping defenders from just funneling door with aoe and their numbers? Well you can break down another door!

Winners of stage get 3 invaders
Losers of stage get 1 invader
Same number of bags as city. if 48v48 double bags (or increase by 75%)
Winner of stage 1 dictates where stage 3 occurs.

If numbers need to be tweaked at all to better balance this out, like the amount of siege batteries provides(rams/oils/etc.) or the timelimit I'm all for that, by no means do I know best just trying to convey my idea.


(possible location for all siege/oil/ram/BO)
Hopefully the image provided helps correctly convey what I'm trying to explain.

Stage two begins.

Stage II

Spoiler:

Stage two is currently [Dark Blue Chosen Steed]. That's probably enough said but for those reading who don't understand... Stage two currently is running around on your mount capping BO's and just trying to whittle down the doors defense by doing something that has absolutely no correlation to the actual door or ram. So stage two should be:

1.) 15 minutes to break down the second door and capture a specific BO on 1st floor.
Win condition for attackers: Capture BO and break down door.
Win condition for defenders: Prevent BO from being capped.
2 minute waiting period for stage to begin.

It only makes sense that stage two changes the most since its currently in shambles. 15 minutes to break down the door. But only one door to break down this time so how do we make it interesting. The BO's! Controlling the BO's in this stage will help with taking down the door. The number of BO's you control will gives you certain advantages to attacking/defending. After the two minute wait period Defenders can leave their fort and attackers can leave their "siege camp" which is just a fancy word for spawn. The idea of this stage is not to repeat stage 1 and have no diversity but rather be very different and have many ways to go about the break in. When BO's are captured by attackers they get +2 minutes. If a BO is captured by a defender and then recaptured by the attacker they will only get +2 minutes if it is their first time capping said BO. The goal of the stage is to break down the door and capture the specific BO inside the keep before the time is up. 3 BO's are in favor of the defender in the fort. 2 BO's are in favor of the attacker and their spawn. Idealy the BO's should have this same principal for all forts since this siege relies on attackers having at least 1-2 BO's and same for the defenders. Readjustments to BO locations for The Maw, Stonewatch, Fell Landing, and Shining Way have to be done to mimic Butchers pass and Reikwald. The idea of this stage is easily simplified to, hold the BO's in your advantage to play it safe, or capture enemies BO's to end the stage swiftly. If attackers hold 5 BO's they can do damage to the keep door directly.

Controlling BO's for attackers gives the following advantages:
1 BO controlled: Ability to spawn a ram that will slowly march to the door with 4 npc champs (much like lord of change or sun dragon) The ram is able to be attacked and destroyed, but is only able to be damaged/targeted after killing its 4 ram pushers.
2 BO controlled: Siege weaponry spawns in front of the fort that can be used to atk defenders. (does not auto fire, needs to be operated like normal siege weaponry)
3 BO controlled: Siege weaponry spawns on walls that auto fires every 30 seconds to dmg door
4 BO controlled: The ram and siege weaponry will regain health slowly
5 BO controlled: The enemy will now be jailed if they click respawn and the postern can be accessed by all. Door can be damaged directly from Inside the keep while all points are held.

Controlling BO's for defenders gives the following advantages:
1 BO controlled: Oil auto spawns and dumps every 6 seconds dealing damage to players, npc's, and anything foolish enough to stand under it. Oil will damage the ram only when npcs have died.
2 BO controlled: Healer NPC spawns on final floor of keep and wounds debuff does not accumulate while npc is alive. NPC is 40 champ.
3 BO controlled: AOE cannons spawn on third and second floor. Second floor can be operated but third floor cannons auto fire at ram/npcs dealing damage to them.
4 BO controlled: Door and Oil will regain health slowly.
5 BO controlled: The enemy can now be captured. If the attackers click respawn they will be captured. Being captured places you in the "capture room" on the 1st floor. Screenshot below. After holding all points for 1 minute Fort lord walks to the enemy camp and captures it, ending the stage.

Winners of stage get 3 invaders
Losers of stage get 1 invader
Same number of bags as city. if 48v48 double bags (or increase by 75%)


Placement of surrounding area and various things described above.

Spoiler:

Jail room in keep for defenders once @5 points controlled.

Stage 3 Beings.

Stage III

Spoiler:

Stage 3 is trying to walk through the fire of hell itself and then kill an army of demons and behead satan. Shits rough. But the lord has to die so stage 3 should be:

1.) 15minute battle to defeat/defend the fort lord.
Win condition for attackers: Defeat fort lord
Win condition for defenders: Defend fort lord

So envision the ironclad SC. The SC is the BO The Ironclad in barak varr, but they turned the BO into an SC and thats exactly what should happen for stage 3. Let me elaborate. Stage 3 is the attackers trying to kill the fort lord and defenders trying to stop this from happening. But the attackers camp is right outside the frontdoor to the keep. Much like how attackers currently exit their spawn in a city (clicking the red portal) attackers in a fort will click the red portal to their spawn in a fort and be placed inside the fort on the 1st floor. Defenders will be on fourth floor and clicking the red portal will put them in the ramp to the 4th floor. You can't be punted off the keep, you'll hit an invisible wall (like IC final stage in the citadel) But you can fall from 3rd floor to 2nd floor. (4th floor is "defenders warcamp"). The fortress lord doesn't do damage to anyone, the same way the king doesn't do damage to anyone. Instead he'll be fighting a bunch of npc's in his lord room to symbolize how we used to take keeps. (or maybe he can just fight the opposing fort lord, but I thought this a comedic option). The balcony and 1st and 2nd floor areas are definitely big enough to have a fight. To prevent lord room sitting the keep lord walks down the stairs to the 1st floor to fight the opposing lord. 6 people will be chosen as champions, same as city and you fight to beat the lord.

Winners of stage get 4 invaders
Losers of stage get 2 invader
Same number of bags as city. if 48v48 double bags (or increase by 75%)

If you failed stage one as an attacker you'll fight outside the outer wall instead of in the keep. (or you can just fight in the keep. whatever you want)

Anyway I've worked on this all day so ima just push submit. If you like it cool, if you want to change something about it lemme know, honestly I think the biggest issue should just be: Forts need to be broken up into instances, either best of 3 or city mimic completely.

[MMXX43]

Nah.

[toffikx]

Interesting. Since even the devs are open for fort rework, this thread could be a nice place for brainstorming.

My 2c ; main problem with fort gameplay is stage 3 - static 30 min funnels decided by pushes or counter-pushes. Once that is reworked, i think forts will become much better.

Regarding size; i’d make them 30-36 sized instances. So ideally a 24 man warband along with 1-2 full party groups or a 12 man. So you can have a mix of AoE and ST setups that offers more class viability but also the choice of how you play the fort ; either in larger or smaller teams. A bit like cities that can be played 18+6.

How the quqeing system would look is another question. Ideally it would be open for both premade and solo quqeing. How that would work in practice i am not entirely sure.

[Stophy22]

Nah.

thx 4 feedback

[Stophy22]

Interesting. Since even the devs are open for fort rework, this thread could be a nice place for brainstorming.

My 2c ; main problem with fort gameplay is stage 3 - static 30 min funnels decided by pushes or counter-pushes. Once that is reworked, i think forts will become much better.

Regarding size; i’d make them 30-36 sized instances. So ideally a 24 man warband along with 1-2 full party groups or a 12 man. So you can have a mix of AoE and ST setups that provides more class viability but also the choice of how you play the fort ; either in larger or smaller teams. A bit like cities that can be played 18+6.

I agree, the whole stage 2 and 3 are a huge problem, which is why I suggested a few things just to throw ideas out

[MMXX43]

Nah.

thx 4 feedback

Np , same post about some weeks ago .
2 destro players "suggesting" after losing 3 fort pushes. Sorry not sorry.

[Stophy22]

Nah.

thx 4 feedback

Np , same post about some weeks ago .
2 destro players "suggesting" after losing 3 fort pushes. Sorry not sorry.

Dunno who hurt you, but I can't quite tell why you're upset or who its directed at. Hope you feel better soon! Just trying to suggest improvements to flawed content!

[MMXX43]

thx 4 feedback

Np , same post about some weeks ago .
2 destro players "suggesting" after losing 3 fort pushes. Sorry not sorry.

Dunno who hurt you, but I can't quite tell why you're upset or who its directed at. Hope you feel better soon! Just trying to suggest improvements to flawed content!

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=37429&p=405732#p405732 same post.

[vetaxz]

I agree that a huge population severely impacts gameplay and cutting down would be an interesting idea; however, some other thoughts should be taken into account. If you are only using 10 people instead of 90, for instance, 80 extra people will now lose out on currency - further creating grinding and gear gap between players due to many variables, like rng.

So if they make a change for lowering the limits then there should be extra instances, like in city. I do think that would require a lot of change. I think another alternative would be able to change the design of a fort itself. Larger entrances or postern doorways would probably be more impactful. Postern would allow for a more element of surprise and larger doorways would make funneling dps a bit more difficult. Its easy for that 20ft radius ground AE to be piled on those doorways. Wouldn’t be as easy to funnel if the gap was lets say doubled, or even tripled in size.

[EsthelielSunfury]

I completely disagree, not with your suggestions to perhaps improve Forts, but with what your outline is.

City is a glorified scenario where anyone can log in during it happening and press solo queue and hope for a good group, or join a premade and increase their chances to win and have an enjoyable time - the exact same thing you do with scenarios during leveling. Log in, have a laugh, move on - except this time it's longer and gives very high rewards.

Instanced content is fine, and we have our fair share of them - scenarios, ranked SCs, City, dungeons. There's no need to make everything that way, they are separate from RvR.

The way I see Forts personally - they are a culmination of realm-wide effort starting from (just an example) Praag, moving to push Chaos Wastes with huge Order numbers and a ton of effort to take that well defended Keep, so you can make a final push towards the enemy capital City. And here's the gist of it - only the players that put in a ton of effort get to do that, avoiding all the people who AFK at warcamp, don't join warbands and basically never play for their faction. Once you're there, you cannot simply run your guild warband and win it, you need a much higher level of communication and discipline to take the Fort and enjoy the rewards. Coordinating with other guilds, moving in with PuG warbands, yelling at people in chat to focus the hell up - to me that is the most important aspect of this game and it feels extremely rewarding at the end.

It isn't flawed and you have presented some ideas, but instancing Forts means at least I won't bother with them any longer. Yes I do get some garbage FPS in them, but I wouldn't trade the experience for playing another 24v24. It's another incredible can of worms to work with :

"Please put 2/2/2 groups in queue"
"Please prioritize premades before solo queues"
"Avoid this or that"

Also, instances have a ridiculous amount of meta-play from what I've seen and that will gimp some players severely despite how much effort they put in the previous zone.

"Oh a WH/WE? Sorry next", you know what I mean.


And the final thing to say, instances favor the melee heavy faction when it comes to PuG (premades are a different story). Don't even bother denying it, close quarters combat will always be dictated by the group that is heavy on tanks and melee dps. This is dealt with differently in such large numbers in Fort because of class variation and PuGs.