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Tone down the Meta Procs

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CyunUnderis
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Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#1 » Mon Feb 19, 2024 9:50 am

Currently, the meta is played around procs damage coming from Bright Wizard/Sorceress and Warrior Priest/Disciple of Khaine.

The differents procs buffs

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Spoiler:
The Bright Wizard has 1 proc damage buff and 2 tactics to boost the damage and the frequency of the proc :

ImageImage

Both tactics will work for his party, meaning that every members of his party has a 45% chance to apply a hit of Flames of Rhuin of 337 damage (before mitigation and damage boost).

Here, an example of build, that can be played in WB : https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 6,563,8201

You can notice that the Bright Wizard will not lose that much from the standard WB build.
Image
Spoiler:
The Warrior Priest has 1 proc damage buff and 1 tactic to boost the damage of the proc :

ImageImage

Here, an example of build, that can be played in WB : https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 9,8280,592

With this current build, the Warrior Priest lose some good tools (like Sigmar's Grace), but helps more his team to apply more damage.
Image
Spoiler:
The Sorcerer has 1 proc damage buff and 1 tactic to boost the frequency of the proc :

ImageImage

The tactic will work for his party, meaning that every members of his party has a 45% chance to apply a hit of Frozen Touch.

Here, an example of build, that can be played in WB : https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 9,9517,563

You can notice that the path of Agony is not maxed, unlike the Bright Wizard, so the base damage of Frozen Touch will be lower.

You can also play with Infernal Gift to boost (10% more damage) your team. It will work on the damage proc.
Image
Spoiler:
The Disciple of Khaine has 1 proc damage buff and 2 tactics to boost the damage and the frequency of the proc :

ImageImage

Both tactics will work for his party, meaning that every members of his party has a 35% chance to apply a hit of Covenent of Celerity of 337 damage (before mitigation and damage boost).

Here, an example of build, that can be played in WB : https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 7,9590,592

You can notice that the Path of Dark Rites is not maxed, so the Disciple of Khaine, like the Warrior Priest, is losing some healing potential.
Faction-wide differences

Both faction has access to tactics that will increase frequency or damage of proc, but there are some differences between both faction on how procs are applied/used.

At the moment, we can notice that AoE channels make procs damage really strong. Channels are stronger since the change on the GCD (1.5sc), with damage tick every 0.5sc or 1sc. It is even stronger with procs damage because the internal CD of procs is lower then a channel tick frequency (0.25sc or 0.5sc - I'm not sure but this is not 1.5sc).

For example, this 2 channels are perfect to apply procs because of their tick frequency :

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On this example, we can notice one difference : White Lion's AoE channel is 360° around him but Marauder's one is 180° in front of him, so the White Lion will hit more targets.

So, in good hands, as a White Lion, you can get a lot of kills really fast. That's why you have a good amount of AoE White Lion top DB in the Killboard :

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Also, it's also worth noting that the Order can play AoE Ranged compositions (BW/Engi/SW), and that these groups will take full advantage of these procs where Destruction can't really be as effective as Order on this aspect (and this is totally fine).

Why this meta is stupid ?

Here, some example of damage contributing to kill from RvR during prime time :

Choppa 1
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Choppa 2
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Choppa 3
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WL 1
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WL 2
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WL 3
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As you can see, procs buffs are really high (from 2nd to 4th) in the contributing damage.

As a tank, this is the repartition of damage I took during this nights :
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As you can see on both pictures, Flame of Rhuin is the first or the second incoming damage that I took (behind my Guard one time). Prayer of Righteousness is 5th.
I didn't play Order recently because of how the population is at the moment, but I'm sure it will be the same with Covenant of Celerity and Frozen Touch procs.

The current meta is stupid. Why ?
1. Procs buff are in the top for killing contribution as a passive, that means when you are buffed, you just have to synchronize your channeling and you'll kill. You don't need to have active synergy/teamplay with your teammate to kill (like when you try to take a kill on a guarded target with a combo punt guard, kd target to prevent detaunt, stagger healer, for example). The amount of damage you will take is too big to be really counter or harder compare to what you need to do when you apply the damage.
2. With the recent change (parties immunities, AoE snare nerf) and some bugs (AoE interrupt from the Marauder too thin), it is harder to manage the big amount of damage, especially on White Lion that can access to the backline with Pounce. Kiting is possible but harder. You can only rely on interrupt (AoE/single and the single one can be really hard if this is a zerg).
3. The meta is even more fixed than before, forcing the use of procs to be effective (Destruction always had a lot of choice possible and Order was more or less fixed on Slayers but it was still possible to play other things).

Proposal

1. We should focus on the procs, by increasing their ICD to 1sc or 1.5sc (GCD). I focused a lot on RvR on this post, but we have the same problem in SC/6v6 (on DoK and WP S/B), during an assist ST (especially with channels). So by using this proposal, we will also help this game mode.
2. We can also change the fact that they are influenced by the final modifiers (Challenge, Bloodlord, Infernal Gift, SL/Choppa's mecanic, ...).
3. We can also change tactics so they will only increase proc and damage only for the BW/WP/DoK/Sorc instead of the full party

Edit : Add 3rd proposal
Last edited by CyunUnderis on Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Hazmy
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Posts: 236

Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#2 » Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:19 am

Thank you for putting in all the work on this post, love to see quality feedback!

akisnaakkeli
Posts: 172

Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#3 » Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:25 am

Definetely NOPE for 1.5s GCD for procs. Now its like live 025s BUT Slayer/Choppa 50% Dmg mechanic did not affect procs dmg, espesially didnt with wpns that has 360 proc. That is the problem not the procs itself. Slayer/Choppa can do 500-600 dmg on that 360 wpn proc and in live wpn dmg procs NEVER went higher than they say on the wpn. If the dmg is 300 then it cant do more than 300 and probably never even get that 300 but 296. Same goes for 360 procs. Same goes for BW/Sorc/Dok/Wp procs. Not affected by 50% + dmg mechanic.

Change the GCD back to 1.15s like it was before and in warhammer online age of reckoning. There is literally no good gameplay reasons to use 1.5s GCD. Actually its the opposite. This quote is from Azarael and what he says is true. Its not fun to waste GCD because animation will happen, skill goes on cooldown but text comes up "outside of cone range " or something. I have not heard 1 good reason to have 1.5s GCD and there are 100 reasons why its better to have 1.15s GCD. In 10 Seconds we used to do 8 abilities, now its 6. This change have broken the game in more ways than people realize.

"The GCD on both AoR and RoR is 1.15 seconds. We know this is the case because the client allows abilities to be used 1.15s into the displayed 1.5s GCD as long as you get your timing right. If you invoke the ability too early, it will be blocked until the 1.5s GCD is up.

We previously had the server enforce the 1.5s GCD hard, and it resulted in client casts being cancelled."

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CyunUnderis
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Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#4 » Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:43 am

Hazmy wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:19 am Thank you for putting in all the work on this post, love to see quality feedback!
Thanks, I appreciate.

akisnaakkeli wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:25 am Definetely NOPE for 1.5s GCD for procs. Now its like live 025s BUT Slayer/Choppa 50% Dmg mechanic did not affect procs dmg, espesially didnt with wpns that has 360 proc. That is the problem not the procs itself. Slayer/Choppa can do 500-600 dmg on that 360 wpn proc and in live wpn dmg procs NEVER went higher than they say on the wpn. If the dmg is 300 then it cant do more than 300 and probably never even get that 300 but 296. Same goes for 360 procs. Same goes for BW/Sorc/Dok/Wp procs. Not affected by 50% + dmg mechanic.

I'm not talking about the proc from Weapons on this post and I don't care about it (% to apply is too low to be important). To me, and from what I read on my combat.log, procs damage from buffs are impacted by % bonus damage. But I'll test it again, to validate or invalidate my point.

akisnaakkeli wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:25 am ... talk about GCD
I agree without about the change on the GCD not being helpfull on some aspects of the game. The changed on GCD made the channels very powerful and by extension the procs too (since the Ability Rework).

akisnaakkeli
Posts: 172

Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#5 » Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:48 am

Cyun yes Proc dmg is impacted by % and that is the problem, not the procs itself. I mentioned wpn procs because you should care about them, its insane that Sl/Choppa can do 600 with Dok/Wp prayer and on top of that do 500-600 dmg from wpn procs as well. This shouldnt be this way and the dmg from dok/wp prayers comes from dok and wp, in fact if someone dies to dok/wp prayer in Scs the killing blow went to wp/dok doesnt matter who procced it.

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Absinth
Posts: 203

Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#6 » Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:54 am

CyunUnderis wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 9:50 am Procs bad blah blah nerf it... (I know overexaggerated thats not my point)
This is great writeup and the procs are indeed in strong place but there is one issue atleast for shield dok, you loose most of your damage if you remove BT + PC, or atleast you loose ~35% of damage you output, if you nerf the damage you nerf the pressure of sdok, if you lower the chance you also nerf it. Nerf of proc also means the nerf of the rend soul damage output since you will not proc the same amount. And at certain loss of pressure you might even just play chalice.
akisnaakkeli wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:48 am Cyun yes Proc dmg is impacted by % and that is the problem, not the procs itself. I mentioned wpn procs because you should care about them, its insane that Sl/Choppa can do 600 with Dok/Wp prayer and on top of that do 500-600 dmg from wpn procs as well. This shouldnt be this way and the dmg from dok/wp prayers comes from dok and wp, in fact if someone dies to dok/wp prayer in Scs the killing blow went to wp/dok doesnt matter who procced it.
That is outright wrong, it does not go to the dok/wp unless the dok/wp did the highest amount of damage, the kill always goes to a person with the highest amount of kill contrib damage to a target. If dok/wp is in chalice/book then at best it will be 35% if all counts as kill contrib
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akisnaakkeli
Posts: 172

Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#7 » Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:57 am

Absinth wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:54 am
CyunUnderis wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 9:50 am Procs bad blah blah nerf it... (I know overexaggerated thats not my point)
This is great writeup and the procs are indeed in strong place but there is one issue atleast for shield dok, you loose most of your damage if you remove BT + PC, or atleast you loose ~35% of damage you output, if you nerf the damage you nerf the pressure of sdok, if you lower the chance you also nerf it. Nerf of proc also means the nerf of the rend soul damage output since you will not proc the same amount. And at certain loss of pressure you might even just play chalice.
Goddamn shield dok.. Besides Shield Dok is Healer Not dmg dealer. That gamebreaking sdok/swp shouldnt exist. Remove the shields and work the "shield only" skills to 2h/dual wield.

Edit; I should have said that when someone USED to Die to wp/dok proc the SC board gave the killing blow to WP/Dok doesnt matter who procced it. Doesnt work this way anymore, but they used to. Also lower aoe cap to 9 and aoe HD's to 50% instead of 30%. Back in Live War one of the best setups in scs was Dps dok, Heal dok so 2x grp proc dmg, Sorcerer,Witch elf, Heal zealot and Bruiser Snb THC Blorc<3 the amount of dmg was INSANITY.
Last edited by akisnaakkeli on Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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CyunUnderis
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Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#8 » Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:00 am

akisnaakkeli wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:48 am in fact if someone dies to dok/wp prayer in Scs the killing blow went to wp/dok doesnt matter who procced it.
This is not what I read in the combat.log file and the SC scoreboard.

For example, in the combat.log :

Code: Select all

[24/02/17][11:46:06] Wes has been annihilated by Notcluclu's Covenant of Celerity in Blood of the Black Cairn.
And no DB on my DoK https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 37db3a8f35 :
Image

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Rotgut
Posts: 123

Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#9 » Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:33 am

There has to be something that is meta, right? Right now yes, it is procs.

We will have to wait to see what is the plan for the future here. Because if you just nerf procs right now without any other changes, it will slow down battles by a lot which will, i think, influence a shift to Morale Meta that has its own can of worms to deal with. Its tricky for sure.

Dackjanielz
Posts: 217

Re: Tone down the Meta Procs

Post#10 » Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:36 am

Aslong as we get something to compensate for the procs being removed it should be fine.

Making the system more consistent is the path forward.
For example - Prayer of righteousness, make it 100% but now it only adds 50 dmg extra.

As for grace and shield DOK - personally i hope that tree gets revamped generally anyway.

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