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[Swordmaster] Roll back (mostly) to December

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Aethilmar
Posts: 639

[Swordmaster] Roll back (mostly) to December

Post#1 » Fri Mar 08, 2024 4:11 am

I was going to make a series of individual proposals but maybe just better to put in in one spot. I have no idea what the balance team is planning to do with SM, but I will say if it is left in the current state it is functionally crippled class as the new doesn't even begin to make up for the old nor does it make it a compelling option compared to the other two (similarly geared) Order tanks.

And the "new" isn't even that new as it just moved the tactic making Blurring Shock into a mediocre punt into a new ability that is the equivalent of the reactive punt (but can be blocked) at the cost of nerfing Gusting Wind ... which I'm sure some folks are cheering but a nerf is still a nerf.


So:

Whispering Wind -> I guess leave the same since it was a realm balancing ability but it really lowered the desirability of SM for warbands. Further it seriously nerfed SM for certain 6-man builds and solo build (yeah ... I know ... solo blech but some of us like it).

Redirected Force -> This was almost a perfect ability and it was sacrificed on the altar of the new punt. It was unique to Shieldmaster spec, had a requirement to use and some limitations but was highly effective when you used it correctly. Changing this was just the opposite of inspired class design.

Ether Dance -> Another sacrifice for homogeneity. Damage is literally what SMs are known for among the tanks and has been part of the identity since live. Ironically it is debatable if they are the "best" DPS tank as a good 2H IB can keep up or do better under certain circumstances but either way ... bring it back.

Heavens Blade -> See my other proposal post. Bring it back.

WoDS -> I get this was also done for uniformity and maybe it should stay for that. However, it already has a built-in weakness of AP usage and with the most recent changes it brought the uptime for it down significantly and is even worse if you get tagged with a drain. On top of that, there are so many interrupts flying around it is now trivial to get past. The current implementation has completely neutered 2H SM in mass combat which other 2H tanks can still wade into for various reasons. If you are going to leave the 5s cooldown then at least make this signature ability not interruptable. As noted, the AP cost alone prevents it from 100% uptime.

Mighty Gale -> I don't personally care if this stays or goes. Others may have different opinions of course. What I do not think should happen is it is used as a reason to nerf SMs everywhere else. If every tank "needs" to have access to a single-target punt, then fine. It has a pretty steep cost on it already (tactic slot) to make it useful. And if its a choice between having it or getting most of the old stuff back ... into the trash it goes.

Eagle's Flight -> 10s is nice. The community has been asking for 7s (up from 5s) for since forever. If the price of getting most of the other functionality back is going back to 5s then so be it but if it only needs a partial nerf then 7s would be fine too.

Vaul's Tempering -> Don't care. Others might. Leave that up to them to voice.




The current version of SM should not be the baseline for rebalancing the class. The baseline should have been the version that was built up and stabilized over several years and was mostly left alone because it was considered "good enough". Please consider reversing most of the changes back as even just the WW change by itself was already a huge hit to the class.

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Sever1n
Posts: 199

Re: [Swordmaster] Roll back (mostly) to December

Post#2 » Fri Mar 08, 2024 4:57 am

Totaly agree with every word. And i also dont want to wait half of year till i can have fun on one of my mains. It was target butchering of dps sm tnx to ranked mental trauma of some destro players an have nothing to do with balance. With patch was sucked all life from dps sm, scout sw, even from lions pet. No problems solved for order, but a ton problems less for destro. I must coment choppagedon? Return clases in prepatch state, this patch was a mistake
Noximilien - AM, Severi - SM, Ravandin - SW, Celebor - WL, Ernwald - WH, Demandred - BG.

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Fey
Posts: 790

Re: [Swordmaster] Roll back (mostly) to December

Post#3 » Fri Mar 08, 2024 6:17 am

Redirected force should get it's aoe interrupt back. Everything else you're saying here is odd to me.

Just as an example, WODS is one of the few remaining vestigial completely broken abilities that didn't have a cooldown. %50 avoidance on demand with no thought, no strategy, no penalty, because if it gets broken you just put it back up again. That's terrible game design, it always should have had a cooldown. Same with Can't Hit Me. Same with Pounce. Frankly it should be 10 seconds to reward interrupts, and punish improper timing. It shouldn't be on BG though, that's completely obvious.

SM is incredibly potent. Every other tank would murder a shipping container full of puppies to have Wings of Heaven. Proper single punt, 10 second parry buff, WW, potent aoe dps debuff for the melee train; the world is not enough I guess.
Fley - Zealot Domoarigobbo - Shaman
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Sever1n
Posts: 199

Re: [Swordmaster] Roll back (mostly) to December

Post#4 » Fri Mar 08, 2024 7:29 am

We dont have u wots, 10k wound racials, near 100%parry like bg and chosens. Broken? 8k hp str based tank launched in air and bursted by squigs and sorks thats what destro count as balance. Any cd on it making skill non existant, tnx to unholy amount of destro cc. Forgot about new shiny interupt on borks? Forgot that 2h sm need to guard? Guard in 2h without wods and check how long u will last. For some reason zero toxic skills like gtdc, celerity, winds of insanity, orks racials, and general perfection of bg wasnt touched. Was only hard nerf of iconic order abilities Wods, Fester, Rampage, WL pet. While destro have shiny new toys. This patch was unfair, and very well planned to be masked with nonexistant minor buffs. Now tell me about years of destro oppression. Go meet on SM another witchbrew regen abomination and tell her how OP is darting steel while u die swinging it. I swear this patch was last drop.
Noximilien - AM, Severi - SM, Ravandin - SW, Celebor - WL, Ernwald - WH, Demandred - BG.

Farrul
Posts: 308

Re: [Swordmaster] Roll back (mostly) to December

Post#5 » Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:30 am

Fey wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2024 6:17 am Redirected force should get it's aoe interrupt back. Everything else you're saying here is odd to me.

Just as an example, WODS is one of the few remaining vestigial completely broken abilities that didn't have a cooldown. %50 avoidance on demand with no thought, no strategy, no penalty, because if it gets broken you just put it back up again. That's terrible game design, it always should have had a cooldown. Same with Can't Hit Me. Same with Pounce. Frankly it should be 10 seconds to reward interrupts, and punish improper timing. It shouldn't be on BG though, that's completely obvious.

SM is incredibly potent. Every other tank would murder a shipping container full of puppies to have Wings of Heaven. Proper single punt, 10 second parry buff, WW, potent aoe dps debuff for the melee train; the world is not enough I guess.
In a world where WODS is free to cast and doesn't have an AP cost this might be true, however as it is the AP cost prevents it from being spammed and as noted by the OP interrupts and Destruction are synonymous.


The huge balance problem with WODS nerf is that it was the only reliable defence 2H SM had, other tanks are either passively tankier or have their own combination of abilities to become tanky. 2H SM? Is now effectively crippled. Feels like a mdps rather than a tank but with crippled dps.

On my SM i've been exclusively 2H for 87 renown ranks and what you claim here is simply not realistic at all. Have to agree with the OP 100% . At least when it comes to 2H the spec is dead in the rvr lakes, only a masochist or someone blissfully ignorant would continue playing in this sad state(never played shieldmaster and nerver will - lore reasons).

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CyunUnderis
Posts: 503
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Re: [Swordmaster] Roll back (mostly) to December

Post#6 » Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:50 am

Sever1n wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2024 7:29 am We dont have u wots, 10k wound racials, near 100%parry like bg and chosens. Broken? 8k hp str based tank launched in air and bursted by squigs and sorks thats what destro count as balance. Any cd on it making skill non existant, tnx to unholy amount of destro cc. Forgot about new shiny interupt on borks? Forgot that 2h sm need to guard? Guard in 2h without wods and check how long u will last. For some reason zero toxic skills like gtdc, celerity, winds of insanity, orks racials, and general perfection of bg wasnt touched. Was only hard nerf of iconic order abilities Wods, Fester, Rampage, WL pet. While destro have shiny new toys. This patch was unfair, and very well planned to be masked with nonexistant minor buffs. Now tell me about years of destro oppression. Go meet on SM another witchbrew regen abomination and tell her how OP is darting steel while u die swinging it. I swear this patch was last drop.
Each side has their strenght/weakness with uniques skills.

SM is the only tank that can go over 100% parry with WoDS (maybe BO with a weird build and I don't think anyone tried it yet) without taking into consideration strikethrought from the enemy. You can be at 80% parry with EF up and 3rd stance, with 10k HP with this build. And if you decide to stack more % parry and compromise your damage, you can have more.

Also, if as a SM, you get interrupted by BO's RiDJ it means that he hit you in the back (so you need to be carefull about enemies tanks positions) or he hit you from the front and then he is very lucky (or you are not).

I won't comment the rest of the post because too biased.

Garamore
Posts: 403

Re: [Swordmaster] Roll back (mostly) to December

Post#7 » Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:52 am

Lots of destro abilties got wrecked in the patch before this. Put SM back and put GTDC and mara pull back. Or wait till they actually finish the balancing.
Garamore - Chosen Garamar - Marauder Garachop - Choppa Garamor - Slayer

Warband leader for Hand of Blood

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Speedyluck
Posts: 21

Re: [Swordmaster] Roll back (mostly) to December

Post#8 » Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:58 am

and put GTDC back to 15s cd.

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Sever1n
Posts: 199

Re: [Swordmaster] Roll back (mostly) to December

Post#9 » Fri Mar 08, 2024 9:55 am

Have fun abuse order casual and roleplay guilds in rvr with 120%AAO, while all strong players will be so frustrated angry and tired that they just rerol destro or quit. Hope u all get a lot of fun of farming bots with nerfed key mechanics with faceroling gtdc cos its really high lvl of skill and chalenge.
Noximilien - AM, Severi - SM, Ravandin - SW, Celebor - WL, Ernwald - WH, Demandred - BG.

vraks
Posts: 4

Re: [Swordmaster] Roll back (mostly) to December

Post#10 » Fri Mar 08, 2024 10:40 am

SM in its current state is utter trash. They killed 2h dps build damage and defenses for no reason. One of the few classes that actually has an interesting alternative niche playstyle (2h tank) that corresponds to the lore just nerfed to be basically an npc with a m2 jump. Now a chosen has more damage, more party utility, more tankiness and build diversity. Meanwhile BG got buffs....whats the damn point of this class? Did they even play it to check how it felt both in scenarios and rvr?

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