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[Ironbreaker] Some Mechanic & Skill recommendations

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GONDOR
Posts: 57

[Ironbreaker] Some Mechanic & Skill recommendations

Post#1 » Sat Mar 09, 2024 3:59 pm

These recommendations were written while being very mindful of the recent balance changes and is careful to not overtune or buff Ironbreaker.

This post isn't to point the devs/balance team towards and say "look at this - this is it" - this post is to open the suggestions up to review, criticism, and thoughts, from the broader community. I'm interested in what YOU think, WHY you think it, and WHAT you suggest.

These recommendations seek to be a "light touch" to help further define the Ironbreaker’s class role and vision as an exceptional melee assist tank.

They primarily revolve around improving the player experience, addressing pain-points, streamlining or clarifying abilities and mechanics, or resolving mechanical class challenges. They are not intended to have meta affecting consequences, merely improve the functionality of Ironbreaker.

There are substantial considerations towards:
  • New players and their Ironbreaker journey
  • Improving the “playability” of Ironbreaker
  • Not changing balance or meta by providing too much utility or power
  • Encourage multiple ways to spec and build an IB to support group play at all scales
  • Ensure that each player decision to select an ability and tactics has a substantive impact on playstyle, contribution, composition, and enjoyment.
These changes are suggested in their entirety, as they consider how IB is played, rather than the individual efficiencies of each skill. Paper balance is only half the equation, part of balance is improving how ironbreaker and players play.

Recommendations:
  • Grudges Generation
  • Grudging Blow
  • Dwarven Riposte
  • Heavy Blow
  • Inspiring Attack
  • Taunt
  • Seasoned Veteran
  • Avenging the Debt
  • Overprotective
----------------------

Grudge Generation

The issue:
Grudge generation is a long-standing pain point for Ironbreakers, as seen by the years of whining about having to run additional tactics for Grudge generation.

The whining isn’t entirely unfounded, the issue is simply:
Lack of direct control on Grudge Generation
Grudge requires the opponent to hit you or your Oathfriend
Poor resource trade
Ironbreakers must exchange or risk HP for Grudge, be it their own or their Oathfriends, unlike any other class resource.
Almost all other class resources exchange AP and/or have direct control over their resource generation.

Whether this is fair or not is irrelevant.

The reality is that Grudge can be a challenging resource to generate, especially during the initial parts of an engagement. The requirement to run additional generating tactics is born out of a need to gain Grudge to push buttons.

This is where the salt and pain point in generating Grudges comes from, as you can find yourself “without tools” for precious moments when trying to handle emerging situations.

It should be noted that Grudge generation is considered by some to be fine, simply because “Dwarven Riposte exists”. An overperforming tactic should not prop up an underperforming core mechanic.

The low initial generation is more pronounced at lower scales of combat, but even in Warband vs Warband, it can take precious seconds to generate the grudge to buff your Oathfriend.

The suggestion:

Scaling Grudge Generation:
This mirrors the Oathfriend scale, albeit generating slightly more.

0-29 Grudge
10 Grudge per hit
30-59 Grudge
7 Grudge per hit
60-100 Grudge
5 Grudge per hit

Rationale (Scaling Grudge):
Often the initial clash of a fight is the most critical, at lower number fights, the initial “getting going” for Ironbreaker causes the most stress. You can lose 20-30% of your HP before buffs and defensives become accessible or appropriately effective.
The initial Grudge curve (0-40) is the most important - there are abilities that have no effect at <25 Grudge.
When assisting a Slayer or White Lion on the initial bomb, it can take seconds (without Dwarven Riposte) before Oathbound, Ancestor’s Fury, Runic Shield, etc, are available.

These seconds are critical in opening engagements.

This suggestion is intended to only “amend” the initial Grudge generation curve, without overdoing generation at higher efficiencies.

Ironbreaker is considered “fine” once the grudges get going - again the pain point is that initial 0-40 generation.
Slightly increased Grudge-scale over Oathfriend is to ensure that you don’t rely on your Oathfriend for Grudge generation - as an IB you still want to go and be the target.
Common feedback is Grudge generation is a “non-issue” - from geared IBs. Lower RR (RR<60) IBs do not have the stats or bulk to wade into the thickest of things in an attempt to “non-issue” Grudge generation like Longbeards.
This is compounded in smaller scales - new IBs need to rely on their abilities to help bolster their effectiveness, but their initial net trade is often negative.
Wading into damage as a tank is bad gameplay - pressures healers who could be healing DPS.
Becomes a morale builder.
Only the most tanky IBs do not need to slot grudge tactics - ask those that don’t what they do when it’s time to hit the fort or keep lord - what cool buttons you can press for your Oathfriend?


------

Grudging Blow:
https://war-abilityviewer.dalen.io/ability/1355

Grudging Blow
Damaging
Path of Stone
Level 0
30 AP
5ft Range
Instant Cast
No cooldown
A vicious attack that deals 352 damage, and causes monsters to hate you much more than normal.

Grudging Blow
Damaging
Path of Stone
Level 0
35 AP
5ft Range
Instant Cast
No cooldown
A vicious attack that deals 352 damage, and causes monsters to hate you much more than normal, and generates 5 Grudge.

If wielding a Great Weapon, you generate an additional 5 Grudge.

Change:
Grudging Blow now generates 5 Grudge
An additional 5 Grudge is generated if wielding a great weapon
Cost increased from 30 -> 35 Action Points

Comments:
  • Ironbreakers currently risk or trade HP for grudge.
  • Risking HP opens up several negative play experiences;
  • Waiting for grudge to use skills
  • Inability to push buttons while losing HP
  • Grudge-producing tactics are currently required to be “functional”
  • Tactics should not be required for core class playability
  • Many considered it necessary but fine to call grudge generation fine due to Rising Anger or Dwarven Riposte
  • Tactics should open up ways to play, or enhance purpose, not be a core requirement of a class.
Rationale:
  • Grudging Blow giving Grudge gives the following:
  • A tool in early engagements to build grudge outside of waiting
  • Direct control over class resource generation
  • An ability to weave to generate grudge, instead of waiting for external sources to generate
  • Similar yet different to Rising Anger - provinces tactic flexibility and more player choice, especially in small scale.
  • Slight increase in AP cost from 30-35 AP to reflect the slightly improved use of the skill
  • Since the skill does more, it makes sense to bring it in line with the other ironbreaker 35 AP cost skills.
  • Improving Grudging Blow boosts the utility of Relentless Training, and subsequently raising the AP cost helps prevent over-performance.
  • 5 Grudge as to not eclipse oathfriend, or Black Guard mechanic.
  • Grudge increased to 10 on great weapon due to 2h Ironbreaker specs being more appropriate and common in small-scale and roaming specs, and to account for the lessened availability of incoming damage to generate grudge.
  • Rising Anger still exists, and must be considered. 10 Grudge base would make it 15. While high, and 15 for 2h, it places an APM and AP burden on 2h, while also requiring a tactic slot.
    The goal is to make Rising Anger or Dwarven Riposte no longer mandatory - they should be really nice to have, but not required to make the class function.
-----

Dwarven Riposte

Dwarven Riposte
Buff
Core Ability
Level 35
Tactic
Self
Passive
No Cooldown
Whenever you Parry you also build 30 Grudge. This effect will not trigger more than once every 3 seconds.

Dwarven Riposte
Buff
Core Ability
Level 35
Tactic
Self
Passive
No Cooldown
Whenever you Parry you also build 20 Grudge. This effect will not trigger more than once every 3 seconds.

Change:

Reduced Grudge gained from 30 -> 20

Rationale:

As unpopular as it would be to nerf Dwarven Riposte (I'm sorry fellow IBs):
  • If other grudge changes are applied, to prevent grudge from becoming too easy, it is necessary to reduce Dwarven Riposte’s efficacy.
  • Dwarven Riposte is often used as a strawman to espouse “grudge generation is fine”
  • Overperforming tactics should not prop up core mechanics
  • Dwarven Riposte should be good, and very nice to have, but should not underpin the entire grudge mechanic.
  • If grudge generation is to be properly addressed, with a grudge curve and additional generators, Dwarven Riposte will need to be toned down to prevent excessive grudge-generation stacking.
Notes:
I would suggest 15 grudge, but I think it may be a little heavy-handed. Suggesting 20 to reassess how IB feels and plays, and then see if 15 is necessary.

---

Overprotective

Overprotective
Buff
Path of Vengeance
Level 17
Tactic
Self
Passive
No Cooldown
Whenever your Oath Friend is attacked there is a 25% chance that you toss the assailant a glare so fierce they take 227 damage.

Overprotective
Buff
Core Ability
Level 17
Tactic
Self
Passive
No Cooldown
Whenever your Oath Friend is attacked, you gain an additional 5 Grudge.

Changes:


Whenever your Oathfriend is attacked, gain an additional 5 grudge.
Made Core

Rationale:

I'm a firm believer that % proc damage effects are negative gameplay experiences. They are often abused (in all games, not just RoR) and have unintended consequences or effects (proc meta). Damage for nothing is an erosion of player agency and lowers the overall interaction a player has with the game.
  • Scales better than rising anger - Rising Anger gives agency, and control over grudge generation. This change to Overprotective doesn't improve either of these things, it just gives more grudge.
  • Oathfriend provides:
    10 grudge at 0-29 grudge, 5 at 30-59, and 3 at 60-100 grudge.
  • With overprotective:
    15 grudge at 0-29 grudge, 10 at 30-59, and 8 at 60-100 grudge.
    An additional 5 grudge overall might not seem like a lot, but it will significantly amplify the ramp and volume of grudge generated by Oathfriend, while still scaling appropriately.
  • This change should pay greater returns at high grudge levels, as it more than doubled the grudge bonus at higher levels.
  • Interesting and thematic mechanic - grudge is challenging as it trades hp for a resource, this makes that trade less punishing, but also incentives the floating of oathfriend onto those being hit; making that incoming hp trade even more valuable.
  • Core issue with grudge is the weak ramp, this gives a strong(er) ramp

    Should be one of the more rewarding grudge-generating tactics;
  • Still risking or trading HP for grudge
  • Doesn't change the core mechanic
  • Doesn't improve grudge generating agency - it's about your Oathfriend being hit, not something you can control directly, so it should be rewarded.
-----------

Taunt
https://war-abilityviewer.dalen.io/ability/1360

Taunt
Debuff
Core Ability
Level 7
20 AP cost
65ft range
Instant Cast
15 Second Cooldown
You enrage your opponent, interrupting any currently building abilities and forcing monsters to attack you. While taunted your opponent will take 30% more damage from your attacks. This effect will fade after 15 seconds or after your opponent has hit you 3 times.

Taunt
Debuff
Core Ability
Level 7
20 AP cost
65ft range
Instant Cast
15 Second Cooldown
You enrage your opponent, interrupting any currently building abilities and forcing monsters to attack you. While taunted your opponent will take 30% more damage from your attacks. This effect will fade after 15 seconds or after your opponent has hit you 3 times.

Change:
Taunt is no longer on the GCD
Applied to all tank taunts

Rationale:
  • Taunt is first and foremost an interrupt
  • Being off the GCD will be more effective as an interrupt and incorporate “fat” to accommodate latency or lower-skill players
  • Single target interrupt, unlikely to impact RvR meta
  • Will improve skill and challenge within 6v6 and small-scale formats, better-facilitating clutch interrupts, instead of being GCD locked
  • Will help smooth out the “clunkiness” that is taunting during damage rotations for all 2h tanks, improving play experience
--------------

Heavy Blow
https://war-abilityviewer.dalen.io/ability/1354

Heavy Blow
Damaging
Path of Vengeance
Level 5
35 AP cost
5ft range
Instant Cast
No cooldown
You strike a crushing blow for 390 damage.<BR><BR> With 25 Grudges: Deals 819 damage over 3 seconds.<BR> With 50 Grudges: Deals 867 damage over 3 seconds.<BR> With 75 Grudges: Deals 918 damage over 3 seconds.<BR> With 100 Grudges: Deals 966 damage over 3 seconds.

Heavy Blow
Damaging
Path of Vengeance
Level 5
35 AP cost
5ft range
Instant Cast
No cooldown
You strike a crushing blow for 390 damage.<BR><BR> With 25 Grudges: Deals 1365 damage over 5 seconds.<BR> With 50 Grudges: Deals 1445 damage over 5 seconds.<BR> With 75 Grudges: Deals 1530 damage over 5 seconds.<BR> With 100 Grudges: Deals 1610 damage over 5 seconds.

Values displayed here are higher, as this is using the old pre-corrected tooltips. On live with 800 strength the DOT tooltip is approx. 50% lower.

Change:

Increased the DOT duration from 3 seconds to 5 seconds.
Additional ticks to maintain consistency for the entire duration.
No change to DPS.


Rationale:
  • The goal of this change is to make playing Ironbreaker a little more streamlined, and easier for newer players
  • This change is merely to make Heavy Blow a little easier to maintain during a rotation, the duration increase does not increase Heavy Blow’s DPS. On paper, it’s a slight DPS loss (uptime, GCD windows, APM).
  • Good IBs will maintain a 100% uptime at 3s, so there is no DPS boost there either.
    In reality, a 500ms difference across all GCDs should make it a higher or tighter uptime for players, without the risk of clipping the DOT.
  • Increased duration will help players with DOT layering.
  • By applying Heavy Blow every 4th GCD, instead of every 3rd, to get the full tick duration, encourages the use of more IB skills, and rewards good tank gameplay.
    5 seconds is recommended over 6 seconds, simply to assist players by preventing DOT clipping, ensuring full tick damage, and keeping the feel of Heavy Blow being a short-duration DOT.
  • The damage application of Heavy Blow is still rewarded by maintaining appropriate and tight uptime on a short-timer melee range dot, weaving in between other tank duties, like buffing and CC, but is less APM soaking.
  • Counter-argument of AP management is moot;
    Ironbreaker is a “piano class”, AP management is the name of the game for skill use on GCD.
    Using Heavy Blow every second GCD versus every third will not decrease the AP management burden on veteran Ironbreakers.
    Current overuse is only needlessly punishing newer player AP management as they learn the rotation. Increasing DOT duration, and subsequently the tooltip, will help players know that the majority of the damage is from the DOT component at all grudge levels and not the initial hit.
-----------------------------------------------

Inspiring Attack
https://war-abilityviewer.dalen.io/ability/1364

Inspiring Attack
Damaging
Path of Brotherhood
Level 9
35 AP
5ft Range
Instant Cast
5 Second Cooldown
A brutal attack that deals 390 damage to your target and inspires you to push the attack, increasing your Strength by 120 for 20 seconds. Will also affect your Oath Friend if they are within 50 feet.
At 25 Grudges: Also increases Willpower by 120.
At 50 Grudges: Also increases Willpower by 240.
At 75 Grudges: Also increases Willpower by 360.
At 100 Grudges: Also increases Willpower by 480

Inspiring Attack
Damaging
Path of Brotherhood
Level 9
35 AP
5ft Range
Instant Cast
5 Second Cooldown
A brutal attack that deals 390 damage to your target and inspires you to push the attack, increasing your Strength by 120 for 20 seconds. Will also affect your Oath Friend if they are within 50 feet.
At 25 Grudges: Also increases Disrupt by 5%.
At 50 Grudges: Also increases Disrupt by 10%.
At 75 Grudges: Also increases Disrupt by 15%.
At 100 Grudges: Also increases Disrupt by 20%.

Change:

Removed:
At 25 Grudges: Also increases Willpower by 120.
At 50 Grudges: Also increases Willpower by 240.
At 75 Grudges: Also increases Willpower by 360.
At 100 Grudges: Also increases Willpower by 480
Added:
At 25 Grudges: Also increases Disrupt by 5%.
At 50 Grudges: Also increases Disrupt by 10%.
At 75 Grudges: Also increases Disrupt by 15%.
At 100 Grudges: Also increases Disrupt by 20%.

Rationale:
  • Clarifies Inspiring Attack’s purpose and benefit to new players
  • Can be done to mitigate potential unintended consequences of Grumble and Mutter being bolstered by the willpower boost
  • While removing the scaling willpower with mastery component, the Inspiring Attack’s strength buff will still scale
  • Provides Inspiring Attack with a reason to be used for non-Path of Brotherhood mastery builds
  • Non-mastery-scaling % Disrupt helps Inspiring Attack remain a core Ironbreaker rotation skill, it is either your strength buff + disrupt %, or your disrupt % defensive.
  • Gives Ironbreaker a true Disrupt defence ability that isn’t Hold the Line
  • Inspiring Attack is already a “disrupt” ability, but it’s not clear unless you have a strong grasp of the game mechanics.
  • Does not impact balance or meta - this is primarily a clarity improvement
  • Makes strike-through more effective (it’s hard to cut through 480 bonus willpower)
  • 20% disrupt requires 100 Grudge on use
  • Still 5% below Black Guard’s Shielding Anger
  • 480 Willpower = ~15% disrupt (14.4%)
    Slight bump in Disrupt provided to promote better Grudge resource management
  • Improves synergy with Avalanche, a same-mastery (Path of Brotherhood) tactic.
----------------------------------

Seasoned Veteran
https://war-abilityviewer.dalen.io/ability/1395

Seasoned Veteran
Buff
Core Ability
Level 31
Tactic
Self
Passive
No Cooldown
Whenever you block an attack you will take only 85% damage for 5 seconds.

Seasoned Veteran
Buff
Core Ability
Level 31
Tactic
Self
Passive
No Cooldown
Whenever you parry an attack you will take only 85% damage for 5 seconds.

Change:
Changed from whenever you block to whenever you parry

Rationale:
  • Changing from block to parry will open this to all Ironbreaker specs, without substantively changing the current balance.
  • Shield tanks are already tanky, changing this to parry is only a minor tradeoff to open the tactic to the entire class.
  • Slight nerf to proc-chance for shield tanks; parry is checked after the block check. If an attack is blocked, it can’t proc parry conditional.
  • Increases Tactic-competition for 2h Ironbreaker specs
  • Enables tactic use on 2H ironbreaker specs, improving gameplay flexibility
  • Synergises with Oathbound and Parrying Guard Damage
  • Is still not as good as a shield for mitigation, but will help.
Core tactics should not be restrictive to certain specs or gear load-outs
Some of the destro tank tactics (“Youz see me blok’ dat’?!” & “Destined for Victory”) have morale on block; recommend they are also changed to on Parry
Increases utility for all tank specs from core tactics.

--------------------------

Avenging the Debt

Avenging the Debt
Healing
Path of Stone
Level 25
20 Grudge
Self
Instant Cast
30s cooldown
Upon spotting a hated foe your rage boils over. You remove all movement-impairing effects. For each effect removed, you will regain 427 health. Your Oath Friend will be affected as well if they’re within 50 feet of you.

Avenging the Debt
Healing
Path of Stone
Level 25
20 Grudge
Self
Instant Cast
30s cooldown
Upon spotting a hated foe your rage boils over, increasing your movement speed by 40% for 6 seconds, and removing all movement-impairing effects. For each effect removed, you will regain 427 health.

Your Oath Friend will be affected as well if they’re within 50 feet of you.

Change:

Added 6-second 40% movement speed increase.

Rationale:
Aligns with goal and vision to increase combat mobility.

When I first proposed this skill in March/April 2020, combat was much more static and sticky. With the changes to snares, it is now very common to be “snare-traded”; I snare you, you snare me, we are at a 1:1 movement ratio. The second snarer has the advantage.

Movement speed increasers or gap closers for tanks are frequently requested - many believe that tanks shouldn’t have movement skills. There is a reason why modern games give all melee classes gap closers of some description; distance is one of the most effective and powerful defensive resources in any game. The inability to close in on ranged that are also moving is a big gap within any melee character in any game, and often skews macro balance towards ranged kiting.

This change won’t skew balance, it aligns Avenging the Debt to keep pace with the changing dynamic and objective of increasing mobility.
  • Similar yet different to We’z Bigger + Linecracka
  • Single target & Oathfriend boost, instead of CC immunity and group-wide
  • 40% run speed for 6 seconds is equal to or above most snare reduction post-normalisation
  • Charge is 50% for 7 seconds
  • Not a replacement for charge; it is “in addition to”
  • In line with ironbreaker buffs being better single target, avenging the debt is doesn't require a tactic (Linebreaka) to give a similar singular application.
  • Helps Ironbreaker stay with increasingly-mobile DPS
  • No snare immunity to not over-tune the skill and ensure Juggernaut & Unstoppable Juggernaut are not eclipsed, have a place, and combining them becomes a player decision.
  • At 9pt mastery, it means Ironbreakers will have to choose as 2h to either to have Earthshatter, an AOE snare, or Avenging the Debt, or Runic Shield, and gives Shield Ironbreakers increased utility with the ability to take both.
  • I would also suggest considering that Avenging the Debt REQUIRES a snare to activate, preventing it being too strong of a gap closer, if that's a concern.

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mekal
Posts: 208

Re: [Ironbreaker] Some Mechanic & Skill recommendations

Post#2 » Sat Mar 09, 2024 4:07 pm

this is just a BUFF me post you yourself said IB is fine once it gets grudges you are just removing every single type of drawback

ib is already considerd one of if not the strongest tank in game

GONDOR
Posts: 57

Re: [Ironbreaker] Some Mechanic & Skill recommendations

Post#3 » Sat Mar 09, 2024 4:18 pm

mekal wrote: Sat Mar 09, 2024 4:07 pm this is just a BUFF me post you yourself said IB is fine once it gets grudges you are just removing every single type of drawback

ib is already considerd one of if not the strongest tank in game
Great insight - as expected, good thought & input.

Grudge-ramp has been a multi-year pain-point for Ironbreaker; every IB main knows it. It was an issue in 6s, 24s, solo. The recent change of Grudge generation on GCD has exacerbated this issue.

Mostly this was done to address clunkiness - I'm interested to hear what IB drawbacks you think should be there.

mekal
Posts: 208

Re: [Ironbreaker] Some Mechanic & Skill recommendations

Post#4 » Sat Mar 09, 2024 4:43 pm

nothing else needed to be said you are quite literally just asking for all around buffs without any trade off

while i agree grudge can be a pain but thats the tradeoff for everything else plus any decent IB is constantly swapping oathfriend the same you do guard

Farrul
Posts: 308

Re: [Ironbreaker] Some Mechanic & Skill recommendations

Post#5 » Sat Mar 09, 2024 6:38 pm

Well written OP and some interesting suggestions, a few i agree with and some i do not.

First of all let's be clear about an ongoing BUG or is it a FEATURE with the ability rework that makes IB pretty much unplayable in any small scale unless he uses both tactics for grudge regeneration ( Rising Anger + Dwarven Riposte).

This is a disaster to any small scale context and affects the BG as well but due to the superiority of BG resource gains compared to IB it is much less of an issue. ( still should be fixed for both classes)

More info:
viewtopic.php?t=52570

As for your suggestions . I disagree with buffing Oath friend as i do not see it necessary, the main issue ( assuming the above bug gets fixed/ looked at) is that RISING ANGER - tactic remains exactly that, a tactic. Should have been given as inherent effect just like BG have from lvl 1 a long time ago.

The resource balance discrepancy between IB & BG hatred/grudges is obvious to anyone who plays both classes, BG feels endlessly more smooth to play.

Now of course BG spends more resources than IB and that is precisely why the have the awesome tool known as Enraged Beating in a low 6pt position in the skill- tree , meaning BG can swim in an abundance of hatred and fullfill their class mechanic in a smooth way,

IB is forced to use up a valuable tactic slot ( one or two) to produce anything useful in smaller scale context and this is not balanced. Tactics should be options to enchance gameplay not requirement to unlock the class mechanic. I hope the devs one day will realize that.

The Idea of Grudging blow generating grudges is an interesing idea, feels thematic. I do not like the idea to use up more buttons on my IB though, however interesting nonetheless.


The suggestion for Seasoned Veteran feels a bit overpowered, let this one remain for SnB IB's focusing on defence imho. 2H IB is fragile compared to BG true but if they fix Grudge resource imbalance and one day return GnM( As said could happen) it will be fine.


Agree on Taunt. Avenging the debt is underpowered for sure but 40% feels excessive, perhaps 25%.

GONDOR
Posts: 57

Re: [Ironbreaker] Some Mechanic & Skill recommendations

Post#6 » Sat Mar 09, 2024 10:22 pm

Farrul wrote: Sat Mar 09, 2024 6:38 pm Well written OP and some interesting suggestions, a few i agree with and some i do not.

First of all let's be clear about an ongoing BUG or is it a FEATURE with the ability rework that makes IB pretty much unplayable in any small scale unless he uses both tactics for grudge regeneration ( Rising Anger + Dwarven Riposte).

This is a disaster to any small scale context and affects the BG as well but due to the superiority of BG resource gains compared to IB it is much less of an issue. ( still should be fixed for both classes)

More info:
viewtopic.php?t=52570

As for your suggestions . I disagree with buffing Oath friend as i do not see it necessary, the main issue ( assuming the above bug gets fixed/ looked at) is that RISING ANGER - tactic remains exactly that, a tactic. Should have been given as inherent effect just like BG have from lvl 1 a long time ago.

The resource balance discrepancy between IB & BG hatred/grudges is obvious to anyone who plays both classes, BG feels endlessly more smooth to play.

Now of course BG spends more resources than IB and that is precisely why the have the awesome tool known as Enraged Beating in a low 6pt position in the skill- tree , meaning BG can swim in an abundance of hatred and fullfill their class mechanic in a smooth way,

IB is forced to use up a valuable tactic slot ( one or two) to produce anything useful in smaller scale context and this is not balanced. Tactics should be options to enchance gameplay not requirement to unlock the class mechanic. I hope the devs one day will realize that.

The Idea of Grudging blow generating grudges is an interesing idea, feels thematic. I do not like the idea to use up more buttons on my IB though, however interesting nonetheless.


The suggestion for Seasoned Veteran feels a bit overpowered, let this one remain for SnB IB's focusing on defence imho. 2H IB is fragile compared to BG true but if they fix Grudge resource imbalance and one day return GnM( As said could happen) it will be fine.


Agree on Taunt. Avenging the debt is underpowered for sure but 40% feels excessive, perhaps 25%.
I think it's a feature, not a bug - I guess we will see. Removing Grudge generation off GCD doesn't solve the ramping issue for small-scale and initial fights, it just goes back to the way it was, and you're still sitting around waiting for grudge to hit minimum threshold before you can "react" - whether it's KB, shield, Oathbound - whatever.

I don't think making Rising Anger always available is the way - as nice as it is, it isn't the class vibe. The suggestion isn't for oathfriend (Overprotective is) - the suggestion is to copy the Oathfriend grudge scale, and apply it when you're hit. It doesn't suggest more grudge per hit >60 grudge, it would remain the same rate as current.

The biggest pain-point for any IB is the opening part of a fight; BG can Enraged Beating to immediately build hatred - and is still gaining hatred from Dark Protector. IB has zero agency in pushing their grudge to 30 to start using buffs.

I agree with Seasoned Veteran's view, but I don't necessarily agree with core tactics being for only one spec (for any class). It wouldn't be unreasonable for it to be Block and/or Parry, either, but when you straight add things, people get confused and cry.

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