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Please, buff No Escape a bit

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tromat
Posts: 49

Please, buff No Escape a bit

Post#1 » Thu Dec 19, 2024 5:18 pm

Hello,

As some maybe know, i'm a big fan of No Escape, the Knight M3. It was completely busted some months ago with a 10 seconds roots, but i asked myself vocally to nerf it because it was too toxic for Destro.

Now, 3 seconds is a too short duration. You can stop / block a mass a little, but they usually are not bothered by it (except when you put a perfect timing in the perfect situation)

I suggest a 5 seconds duration. It's a skillfull spell, and below M3 predominance is boring

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Thanks for reading

Troma

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leftayparxoun
Posts: 306

Re: Please, buff No Escape a bit

Post#2 » Thu Dec 19, 2024 9:45 pm

This post got me interested in looking up how Morales are balanced. While it's quite hard to make 1:1 comparisons, here's what I found out about this specific case.

In general it seems that all (straight forward) damaging morales follow certain rules:

There are only ST damaging M1s:
  • ST Damaging M1 with no additional effect = 1200 dmg (exception is Sorc/BW M1 having 1800 dmg, but spread over 9 seconds)
  • ST Damaging M1 with additional effect(s) = 900 dmg
Damaging M2s are only AOE:
  • AOE Damaging M2 with no additional effect = 1200 dmg
  • AOE Damaging M2 with weak additional effect(s) (SW/SH M2 with AOE dmg + snare) = 900 dmg
  • AOE Damaging M2 with strong additional effect(s) (Healer M2 with AOE dmg +party heal, BG M2 with AOE punt + snare) = 600 dmg
For M3, we have both AOE and ST dmg morales:
  • AOE Damaging M3 with no additional effect = 1800 dmg (SH M3)
  • AOE Damaging M3 with additional effect(s) = 1200 dmg (WP, DOK, KOTBS, Zeal, BO, SW M3s)
  • ST Damaging M3 with weak additional effect(s) = 1800 dmg (WL, Choppa, Slayer M3s) Engi M3 is also here although one could debate whether the effect it has is weak similar to the other Morales in this category
  • ST Damaging M3 with strong additional effect(s) = 1200 dmg (Mara dmg + party heal M3, Sorc/BW/Magus dmg+stagger M3)
M4s are way more varied, but we can again draw some conclusions:
  • AOE Damaging M4 with no additional effect(s) = 2400 dmg
  • AOE Damaging M4 with weak additional effect(s) = 1800 dmg (e.g. 30% snare for 3s from BG/BO left tree or 3 s kd by Slayer/Choppa Mara right tree M4). An exception here might be the 1800 dmg + 5 s silence right tree M4 for BG that may require rebalancing.
  • AOE Damaging M4 with strong additional effect(s) = 1200 dmg (e.g. 50% heal debuff from Zealot's right tree and Choppa/Slayer middle tree M4s). Here we can also find some seemingly weak M4s like SM's left tree M4 or Sorc's left tree M4 that may require rebalancing.
What we can see is that for AOE morales, the damage increases by 600 on each step (1200 --> 1800 --> 2400). Having a weak effect (snare) attached to it, will reduce the damage by 25% (e.g. 1200--> 900, 2400 --> 1800) while a strong effect (long hard CCs, immediate Morale drain, heal debuffs) will have a 50% dmg reduction for M2/M4(e.g. 1200 --> 600, 2400-->1200).

AOE Morale 3s with additional strong effects only get reduced by 33% (1800 --> 1200).
Since that's the case, one would expect their additional effects to be weaker than M2s or M4s. Let's take a look:
Image

While there are no other AOE stagger Morales to compare, the AOE stagger damaging M3s seem reasonable:
Image
They deal the same damage, but AOE instead of ST. They also have 25 ft range around the caster instead of 100 ft away and also the stagger lasts for 6 s instead of 9 for the ST ones. Overall quite a fair tradeoff.

Next up we have the silence AOE damaging M3s:
Image
Closest thing we have to compare them to is the Blackguard right tree M4 which deals 1800 damage and also silences for 5 s.
While that M4 may also require rebalancing, so far it seems like a reasonable tradeoff; same effect but +600 dmg between M3 and M4. One could argue that 33% dmg reduction for M3s vs 25% dmg reduction for the M4 is a bit unfair, but I find it quite ok since the most important component is the CC duration which the M3 shares with the M4.

Finally, let's talk about the hot topic. KOTBS' M3. We now have a few other things to compare them to:
Image
The Mara/WL/IB Morales are M1 while the Sorc's is the right tree M4.
Firstly, if we compare the KOTBS M3 with the Sorc M4 we see the same pattern as before; same CC duration, same range, but 600 dmg difference. As explained directly above, this is fair in my eyes since the important aspect is the duration and not the damage component (-33% vs -25% of pure AOE dmg M3/M4 respectively).

The comparison with the M1s is much harder due to being different Morale tiers as well as ST vs AOE. If we extrapolate the relation we found for the stagger M3s, where ST stagger M3 had 9 s stagger while AOE stagger 6 s stagger (3:2) ratio then we'd expect a theoretical ST root M3 to have:
100 ft range, 1200 damage and 3*3/2 = 4.5 s root duration
Comparing, now, this theoretical ST root M3 with the ST root M1s in the game we see:
  • 1200 dmg vs 900 damage: This is in line with the damage of other ST M1/M3s with strong additional effects
  • 4.5 s duration vs 5 s duration: While not exactly equal (M1's are slightly better), this is also in line with what we saw earlier about the additional effect duration between Morale tiers; same duration and only damage changes (see Silence section above)
  • 100 ft range vs 30/65 ft range: Although we have nothing to compare it to, this seems to significantly favour the theoretical ST root M3 (and thereofore the KOTBS AOE M3). Especially if we compare it with the IB M1 that has 30 ft range instead of 65 ft for whatever reason.

To sum up, the AOE damaging M3s with additional effects seem to be quite balanced compared to the other Morales. The only exception is the KOTBS M3 that is perfectly balanced compared to Sorc's right tree M4, but seems to overperform compared to the other 3 ST root M1s. If the M1s are undertuned(especially the IB one) or if the KOTBS M3/ Sorc M4 are overtuned, or perhaps it's a combination of both, remains to be seen.
I would at the very least be against buffing the KOTBS M3 until a complete review of all Morales is performed (perhaps at the dps Balance phase). We always have to take into account the complete picture.
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Fey
Posts: 927

Re: Please, buff No Escape a bit

Post#3 » Fri Dec 20, 2024 6:38 am

One of the most impressive posts I've seen. @leftayparxoun

I agree, a three second root on a M3 is ridiculously low. However as leftayparxoun notes Order has two six second aoe M3 staggers. Therefore Order does not suffer from a lack of M3 aoe morale CC. Balanced as a faction anything longer than 3 seconds on such a strong class might be over tuned. But this example is emblematic of the larger issue with morales.

Morales have been significantly reduced in effectiveness. This is bad for the server, imo, and has resulted in the current blob meta for orvr. It is not only the half-scaling morale damage change that I'm sure everyone is aware of. Much earlier than that morale abilities like, Eye of Sheerian and Mountain Spirit, had their duration's nerfed from thirty seconds to ten seconds. This is obviously bad game design, because every single healer in the game is going to run Focused Mind. That's boring, and it sucks, because morales enable unique metas; and they generally resolve fights in a reasonable amount of time.

Similar adjustments have resulted from nerfing, Sprout Carapace, and A Thousand and One Blessings. Dumbing down the morale system then creates all sorts of balance issues. These two morales specifically were the par excellence of Destruction's faster morale gain. This morale meta, and Crippling Strikes additionally, were designed to counter Order's front-loaded extra crit with Leading Shots, and Dirty Tricks. Well if you get rid of Crippling Strikes altogether, and you nerf these potent morale durations to ten seconds well then you have to nerf, Leading Shots, and Dirty Tricks; because that much crit and a Slayer with old %100 Rampage is going to delete anything within reach.

I respect the vision of the server as unique from AoR, but I feel like morale abilities are not respected. The actual game has a very clear intention. It is a balanced trifecta of ability, tactic, morale, and it's clear that morale abilities are viewed as an unskilled I-win button, and it has had negative effects on this server.

I'd like to see the the half-scaling dps on morales reverted. Cap them at 9 if you have to, just bring back old morale drops. Even a live event to test the effect of that would be fun, particularly now with a very large population. Enable the old morale damage, and let's see how many more people die than normal. I've complained about this previously, and I try not to do it ad nauseam. This took entirely too long to write.
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Lyreii
Posts: 8

Re: Please, buff No Escape a bit

Post#4 » Fri Dec 20, 2024 12:15 pm

Thank you guys both, amazing posts.

I would have loved to see leftay approach for the many changes happened in the last period of time.

I agree with Fey completely and I would add that aoe staggers suffered the same nerfs as they were 9 sec. They were game breaking if done properly and if anything they promoted skilled play and thinking, instead of mindless blobbing.
Engi and magus even have a skill that removes staggers. Does people uses it or even know the existence ?
If 9 seconds seems too much 5 is definitely too short.

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Hugatsaga
Posts: 219

Re: Please, buff No Escape a bit

Post#5 » Fri Dec 20, 2024 1:02 pm

Agree, good points above & No Escape needs a buff. Nerf champ challenge though. M1's shouldn't be strongest CC in the game.
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