Make Witch Elf finishers actually useful

[Ksekwlothreftis]

The recent DPS patch has completely dulled the Witch Elf class (and I image the Witch Hunter too, although I've never played it).
Before the patch we at least had some variety with building Witch elf basing the builds around the finishers. Puncture, Ruthless Assault, OYK and Witchbrew were all utilized and could be built and enjoyed. I personally ran RA+OYK because I enjoyed the build up, the execution and the range it offered. With the recent patch, reducing all the finishers to 5ft range the class lost so much potential and imo Shadow Leap doesn't contribute much to the core gameplay of the class since it cannot be used in stealth to engage. On that note, Ruthless Assault is not remotely worth using now as it breaks way too easily, both puncture and sacrificial stab had their damage reduced, and puncture was completely trivialized by sacrificial stab as one offers armor penetration and a snare and the other offers nothing extra. Heartrender toxin got removed as a finisher and OYK also had its damage reduced.
These changes leave the Witch with only 2 viable choices for St, being Sacrificial stab and Witchbrew, where the core gameplay is spamming Agonizing Wound.
The change of how elixirs work, although it introduced the possibility of using multiple elixirs, also introduced a change in the effects you get from them which I believe stems from the newly introduced aoe aspect of the class. Basically elixir of insane power got turned into charge, mind you an elixir that was and is still supposed to be used during burst windows, has a 50% movement speed buff that you lose upon using an ability making the elixir completely antithetical to whatever it's trying to be, while also making it less effective since it saw a 25% armor penetration reduction. On the other hand shadows and cauldron swapped trees and shadows saw its main buff moved to insane power. The outcome is that even if elixir cooldown is separate u can only realistically use 2 of them.
Personally I'd like to see both elixir of insane power and shadows effects reverted to before patch.
My recommendation to make Witch Elf interesting to play in st is to treat every finisher the same way sacrificial stab was treated, meaning to add interesting effects and good damage to actually make them useable and to revert the range nerf.

[Krima]

The recent DPS patch has completely dulled the Witch Elf class (and I image the Witch Hunter too, although I've never played it).
Before the patch we at least had some variety with building Witch elf basing the builds around the finishers. Puncture, Ruthless Assault, OYK and Witchbrew were all utilized and could be built and enjoyed. I personally ran RA+OYK because I enjoyed the build up, the execution and the range it offered. With the recent patch, reducing all the finishers to 5ft range the class lost so much potential and imo Shadow Leap doesn't contribute much to the core gameplay of the class since it cannot be used in stealth to engage. On that note, Ruthless Assault is not remotely worth using now as it breaks way too easily, both puncture and sacrificial stab had their damage reduced, and puncture was completely trivialized by sacrificial stab as one offers armor penetration and a snare and the other offers nothing extra. Heartrender toxin got removed as a finisher and OYK also had its damage reduced.
These changes leave the Witch with only 2 viable choices for St, being Sacrificial stab and Witchbrew, where the core gameplay is spamming Agonizing Wound.
The change of how elixirs work, although it introduced the possibility of using multiple elixirs, also introduced a change in the effects you get from them which I believe stems from the newly introduced aoe aspect of the class. Basically elixir of insane power got turned into charge, mind you an elixir that was and is still supposed to be used during burst windows, has a 50% movement speed buff that you lose upon using an ability making the elixir completely antithetical to whatever it's trying to be, while also making it less effective since it saw a 25% armor penetration reduction. On the other hand shadows and cauldron swapped trees and shadows saw its main buff moved to insane power. The outcome is that even if elixir cooldown is separate u can only realistically use 2 of them.
Personally I'd like to see both elixir of insane power and shadows effects reverted to before patch.
My recommendation to make Witch Elf interesting to play in st is to treat every finisher the same way sacrificial stab was treated, meaning to add interesting effects and good damage to actually make them useable and to revert the range nerf.

Agreed 100%.

The base damage of Slice is also extremely low. Right now, Carnage has no real spammable ability, and in its current state it’s basically unplayable.

Even before the patch, Carnage damage on OYK was already among the lowest — so what’s the point of lowering it even further? I’ve always been able to find ways to make Carnage work, but now it feels impossible with:

RA reduced to 5 ft

OYK damage being too low

Slice being AoE

EOIP reduced to 25%

At this point the message is basically:
"You have to play AW + Witchbrew/SS — that’s your only option."

[ckm1243]

The only way u can play WE effectively in this defensive meta is as a tanky debuff bot anything else seems super less effective and the damage ur getting in exchange for the defense u lose does not feel worth it at all. I dont think this is just something u are seeing with witch elf i think melee dps as a whole are starting to feel this change as we see are damage across the board go down overall. I do miss old RA it does feel unusable compared to how it used to be and sac stab is only good if ur playing a 1 shot shot but i understand where u guys are coming from feeling like u have to get WB. WB does feel to be the best finisher for consistent damage which does play well with this grindy meta. Me personally i just build defensive and play the morale bomb game to kill people in ranked and i realize that i don't use any finishers other than oyk for the morale pump and drain. Lets be honest the only thing that change as far as finishers worth using is RA is out and sac stab is in. I will say that with a grain of salt because i haven't used sac stab much yet but it seems ok the damage is competitive with the old RA build but only for one second so idk it definitely feels faster but does not hit harder.

Heart render toxin changes are awesome and is without a doubt a net plus for all WE
increased pain without spending mastery points is nice
the aoe is fun and its nice to finally participate in the game with WarBand without feeling like U are holding everyone back.
I love that m4 blade spin damage is instant... now its actually usable
also 30 sec to spend combo points is better than 20


I like the changes to our elixirs i personally believe that we should have had it like this since day one. The pounce is cool and i know people are mad we got it but i believe it is definitely a nerf we get it in exchange for our best finisher getting trashed with 5 ft range. But its not necessarily the end of the world cuz now u can argue we have more up time which is good for us keeping our dots and debuffs on a kill target and making it difficult for enemies to relieve the pressure.

What i have heard from friends based on the changes they hav recieved to there dps classes is that it seems things are slowing down and becoming more rampy for DPS. I feel scared for dps because I have already felt useless a time or 2 When many tanks and healers are running around doing competitive damage with all the luxuries of having healer and tank abilities and tactics While dps barely get any. If thats the direction we wanna go thats cool just know dps will be harder and harder to find.

Eleestraee 86

[xispe]

The recent DPS patch has completely dulled the Witch Elf class (and I image the Witch Hunter too, although I've never played it).
Before the patch we at least had some variety with building Witch elf basing the builds around the finishers. Puncture, Ruthless Assault, OYK and Witchbrew were all utilized and could be built and enjoyed. I personally ran RA+OYK because I enjoyed the build up, the execution and the range it offered. With the recent patch, reducing all the finishers to 5ft range the class lost so much potential and imo Shadow Leap doesn't contribute much to the core gameplay of the class since it cannot be used in stealth to engage. On that note, Ruthless Assault is not remotely worth using now as it breaks way too easily, both puncture and sacrificial stab had their damage reduced, and puncture was completely trivialized by sacrificial stab as one offers armor penetration and a snare and the other offers nothing extra. Heartrender toxin got removed as a finisher and OYK also had its damage reduced.
These changes leave the Witch with only 2 viable choices for St, being Sacrificial stab and Witchbrew, where the core gameplay is spamming Agonizing Wound.
The change of how elixirs work, although it introduced the possibility of using multiple elixirs, also introduced a change in the effects you get from them which I believe stems from the newly introduced aoe aspect of the class. Basically elixir of insane power got turned into charge, mind you an elixir that was and is still supposed to be used during burst windows, has a 50% movement speed buff that you lose upon using an ability making the elixir completely antithetical to whatever it's trying to be, while also making it less effective since it saw a 25% armor penetration reduction. On the other hand shadows and cauldron swapped trees and shadows saw its main buff moved to insane power. The outcome is that even if elixir cooldown is separate u can only realistically use 2 of them.
Personally I'd like to see both elixir of insane power and shadows effects reverted to before patch.
My recommendation to make Witch Elf interesting to play in st is to treat every finisher the same way sacrificial stab was treated, meaning to add interesting effects and good damage to actually make them useable and to revert the range nerf.

Agreed 100%.

WE and WH need buff!

[Judarth]

Totaly agree. I'm very sad WE lost 30 Ft finishers. WE lost so much game play.

With 30 ft range you was able to kite some Melee dps, or keep your presure when you get punted or lost melee range in any other way vs range character, again range 30 ft range let you avoid oae spam mob dmg (cose it usualy about 25 ft) and keep some pressure, very useful when you play solo (I belive most ppl play WE for solo game play). It was like dancing with your enemies you hit few times and kite with Ruthles Assaut. Such unique and amazing game play. Jump help only for chase, nothing else.

And WH not only have 30 range still, this game play was improved with Incendiary Shot so you can non stop shoot with range finishers and this ability when combine it with Flowing Accusations tactic. It feels very strong for solo game play. May be WE need some range blood lust build ability but not WH ;/

Very confused. Classes were never mirored but you was able to get pretty same game play on both sides... So removing WE range is removing mid range for destro in general. And don't tell me WH have gun and WE not. It's fantasy game, It's fantom blades and witch shreding you soul with it or some other crazy thing wich we like in fantasy. WE can throw daggers if you like realism.

Khaine bless. Hope we get alternative to Agonizing Wounds spam.

[kylem20]

100% this post is trolling and sarcasm.
Post like this doesnt help the server.

[Ksekwlothreftis]

My main problem is that anything other than Sactificial Stab or Witchbrew is ineffective for damage. Sacrificial stab penetrates armor completely and Witchbrew does corporeal damage, and both abilities hit hard within their burst window with minimal effort.
Carnage ability tree is reduced to aoe,which ive tried and i gotta say is really fun to play around with, but it does not necessiatate the entire tree becoming aoe focused. At least personally, i loved Ruthless assault and i hate to see it like this now.

Of course some of the changes introduced with the patch are very welcome, like the 10% crit for vehement blades or treacherous assault becoming similar to burn armor for WH in use or Heartrender toxin having a spammable wounds debuff. But all it really did was shift the "St burst focused" class into either aoe damage dealer or debuffer similar to mara.
But in either case simply bringing a Bis mara is better than a Witch Elf, since mara has great utility, debuffs and damage.
I am not asking for a simple number increase for Witch Elf , i am more in favor of introducing new mechanics to existing finishers to bring them in line with eachother.
It wouldnt also be unreasonable to have a bunch of the tactics from the ability trees looked into, as most server a role for Regen or Def Witch Elf, which most people despise.

[kylem20]

WE patch nerf:
Lose ranged finisher

WE patch buff:

Burst finisher that ignore armor and slow(WH hasent got slow)
Slice system that not requiere target to hit and stay melee (like other melees is veryyyyy good change)
AOE “execution” finisher
Elixirs not share CD (like WH)
“Triple Pounce”, WL need kill but WE reset the CD of pounce skill with restealth and vanish ( was a very bad skill now and now is meta)

I have WH 82 and the 25% crit of BAL must be revert, but WE now is OP like hell, AOE RvR , solo and premade 6 man….if you prefer WE before patch i understand many things about server.

[Ksekwlothreftis]

WE patch nerf:
Lose ranged finisher

WE patch buff:

Burst finisher that ignore armor and slow(WH hasent got slow)
Slice system that not requiere target to hit and stay melee (like other melees is veryyyyy good change)
AOE “execution” finisher
Elixirs not share CD (like WH)
“Triple Pounce”, WL need kill but WE reset the CD of pounce skill with restealth and vanish ( was a very bad skill now and now is meta)

I have WH 82 and the 25% crit of BAL must be revert, but WE now is OP like hell, AOE RvR , solo and premade 6 man….if you prefer WE before patch i understand many things about server.

I am not here to compare classes and I wont bother to because i dont care, but Witch Hunter got the same aoe treatment as Witch Elf did. Saying Witch Elf is Op is an out of touch overstatement.
Its also a "double" pounce, which is only useful for swapping targets, since u cannot engage a fight with it from stealth. The only meaningful change to it is that its faster when on even terrain.

My post is 100% serious, I cant even fathom how it would pass as disengenuous in your eyes.

[kylem20]

Pounce, vanish, pounce, restealth, pounce…. You can do that every 60 sec right or not? Ofc double is very easy. Pounce is broken as hell, is the best close gap of the game, you had only speed buff and now have speed buff and triple pounce, is impossible kite a WE now (and slow on finisher).
For aoe rvr postioning is basic, pounce and slice system are so much better than before…
If you ask me…WE>WH, its not the same bullets than kisses for AOE eh.
WE is in his prime time (better than proc time) but really if you want revert patch notes for WE for me is fine. People only want buffs not nerfs, an that is not balance.