2h Choppa/slayer changes

[Toldavf]

As somebody who loves his slayer and played it to 100 on live I oppose the ops suggestions whole heartedly.

[Reesh]

Same.

[Sizer]

As someone who used to run 2h SB slayer quite a lot back on the live servers, I have to say these are the most stupidest proposed changes I've ever seen, no offence. Just a list of random wacky ideas for a very strong class with a variety of strong builds

Thanks for your feedback, but please note the other responses. I already know they are a strong class with a variety of strong builds, I used to play both with a 2h on live too. That doesnt mean they are all perfect, or the class couldnt be made a little more complex and harder to play instead of its meta dps rotation consisting of so many spammables. I didnt make this post because i think these things need to happen NOW, they are just ideas for the future.

Spoiler:

#1. Wot rules/power through - I would change it to a new tactic that gives 25% chance to regain 25 rage and 25 ap on being crit (prob needs a max of 1 proc per second, at least on the ap). No it still wouldnt let you drop your rage while being focused (a must have for these specs imo), and it could even be considered a nerf, as you cant just spam one exhaustive after another (spellbreaker change below to make up for it), but itd add in some interesting counterplay and make the classes less spammy. Also ap seems like a useful reward for the drawback - if youre going to be this squishy ap management should be easy.

Pretty massive change here, and could end up being terrible, but ive always thought rage should fluctuate more in these builds instead of being at full 24/7, plus it would make more sense thematically - the more damage these classes are taking the more they can deal.

The main reason almost every 2h build uses this tactic - is the control over your rage it provides, meaning you can use your stun, wounds debuff, anti-crit whenever you need them, without having downtime and losing 50%+ of your damage - even without spellbreaker. It is THE group build, heavily reliant on your healers and guard, where even AP is not an issue.
There is already flavourful "less spammy" version in the form of Violent Impacts, where you can enjoy your random anger management if you desire it. Don't see the reason for PT to be altered because it put you in red almost permanently and makes you an easy target outside guard.

I get people not wanting to change this, it is pretty game changing. Still, the reason I suggest this is it would add in more counterplay that would also fit these classes thematically in my opinion - has nothing to do with making you an easy target (besides you still would be an easy target). Meaning that if a 2h choppa/slayer is charging you, attacking him will only give him more rage and make it easier for him to use his best abilties - but of course, if you kill him in time, its worth it. I know there is a lot of risk/reward in these builds now, almost certainly more than in other classes, but itd add more, and also, like staggers breaking from aoe, would penalize people who mindlessly spam aoe (which this game needs more of)

It would also make it harder to play, of course, as you cant use 2 exhaustives in a row, but so what? If exhaustives are good enough abilities (and they mostly are), it should be difficult to use one after another.

Besides this isnt necessary at all compared to the other suggestions, just a big idea I wanted to get feedback on. It might not be the best way to change rage management tactics, but thats still something I think needs to happen if dps is going to be made more challenging in this game.

Spoiler:

#2. Put spellbreaker on a cooldown but also buff it to make it work better with the above tactic. Best way would be to add an outgoing heal debuff and put it on a 10s cd (no more helpin should get a 10s cd too, if youre this squishy cd's should be low). You could even leave the absorb-removal on it, and give the choppa version a different minor effect (maybe an ap drain or something), just to keep them different.

Another pretty massive change, but necessary imo, even if power through is unchanged. The main downside is these classes could now double heal debuff someone with 100% up time - you could fix this by moving the incoming debuff to the 13 point ability in the other tree, but that would be an even bigger change, and honestly it wouldnt be that OP anyway considering how squishy these builds are (we/wh can already double debuff and that isnt generally considered op, right?)

Also, in line with the lower cds, id also be for tired already being 10s cd and 5s duration (shatter limbs should be the same too imo), but thats really stretching it, so il leave it at that and see what people think of changing spellbreaker/no more helpin first.

Firstly why should inc. heal debuff be a 13point ability - making it actually worse than most heal debuffs, with its just having 10 sec duration on 10 sec CD. This is a very hard nerf to almost every build.
Making spellbreaker into a outgoing heal debuff would make order slayer based melee cleave incredibly strong with one SL with shatter limbs and the other with two debuffs, even if inc. debuff is 13points. Besides that change would make Axeman WL obsolete. SB is just a copy of Spine Crusher damage wise w/o the positional, but with a rage requirement.

I didnt mention it in the original post, guess i should have, but suggesting 13 point heal debuffs is something im a big advocate for, but for ALL classes. The point is for it to be a very hard nerf for every build, and to force players to make real choices about their spec related to what their other group members can bring. Not to get a heal debuff in 100% of your specs, instead youd have to decide whether you want only one dps in the group with a heal debuff in exchange for more damage, or go with two debuffs and less damage.

You do raise a good point about axeman wl, I didnt remember that, but still, I wouldnt say theyd be useless, in fact the opposite. Maybe even in a group like that a wl would finally have a reason to go full hunter for the better armor debuff (and perhaps by that point whirling axe would be made something useful). Or if you want to run a wl/sl group, go axeman wl and trollslayer sl - more variety in builds is better than less, as Azarael noted in his balance discussion rules.

Also the spellbreaker heal debuff change might not work out great, but I suggested giving more/lower cd outgoing heal debuffs so Ib/bg arent the only classes with one. Yes you still want reasons to bring ib/bg to groups (and imo there still would be), but it would give alternatives - maybe people would even consider a sm/bo if you didnt need ib/bg whenever you want an outgoing heal debuff.

Spoiler:

#3. Id also put wot rules/power through (regardless of them being changed or not) in place of determination/long lasta, and make no escape/wots da rush not require dw and be on a 10s cd. Those would give a decent reason to go with the aoe line as your second tree - you lose the heal debuff but gain a pretty good snare. This would more or less require SL to get a dw requirement, which i guess is a big change, but who cares, it needs one anyway, and most aoe slayers run dw already.

The snare ranges from 10% to 40% for 5sec on 30sec cd, which is very unreliable for a reason, that you should bring tank to provide aoe snares. Doubt that anyone would take it as 2h and some don't even run it as DW, tactic swap wouldn't help it much.

True. I made this more with choppas in mind, as none of them even think about running the aoe tree, even if they dont need the inc heal debuff. Certainly more to consider in that line.

Spoiler:

#4 Enervating blow/try an hurt me - Not specifically 2h abilities, but id do the following - Make undefendable on a 20s cd, but with a 5s duration. Another fairly big change, and would even be a bit of a nerf to non-2h builds, but it would make the skill more reliable like the knockdown is now.

I don't know what knockdown has to do with Enervating blow, but nerfing the duration is harsh and would make this signature 10sec anti-crit ability barely noticeable - just for the fun of it?

More related to making it undefendable like the kd is, I guess that isnt needed if 2h get reduced to be parried instead of blocked. Still, I disagree about the 5s being useless- if you think about it in a serious 6v6 targets often will often swap at least every 5s, and lower duration/cd will make the timing much less forgiving than having it simply be a fire and forget ability. But yes, it is harsh.

Spoiler:

#5 Also, well, this is just a flat out nerf, but id make the knockdowns 2s duration instead of 3. 3s is fine for dw builds like people use now, since you lose rage, but if 2h builds become better it will just be too much to have a 3s kd on a 20s cd with no other requirements.

Skill is in line with other MDPS 3sec knockdowns, 3 sec duration on the 20 sec CD, and even a bit worse because it requires to be in the red to use it with undefendable as the upside. No reason to alter it.

Completely disagree. If you are running a 2h build its not in line at all, there is nothing difficult about charging up to someone and hitting them with an undefendable 3s kd. Tank cc should always be better than melee ones.

Yes for dw builds it is in line as you lose your noted, making this a bigger nerf, but so what. Dw builds have less risk so they should have less reward from it.

Spoiler:

#7 Change the crit tactics to a flat 15% crit while using a 2h instead of just on certain abilities. Easy enough since it already gives 10% increased to be crit.

Bombing would get real again

Nope, the tactic would still require using a 2h and ID requires dw. Guess you could just use it with flurry though.

Spoiler:

#8 Deathblow and weaklin killa to 10s cd. Simple change to put it in like with other finishers in game.

Make it 20sec, 10s might be too strong for spellbreaker builds and the ability is one of the most hard hitting melee ones in the game, 30sec is just as fine.

Id be fine with 20, but 30 seems way too long, especially if rage ever becomes harder to manage.

Spoiler:

#9 Precarious assault and reckless blow - Did anyone ever understand why it gives you 5% more to be crit instead of your enemy, and yet doesnt do more base damage than slasha? Id change it to give 5% (or even 10) to be crit to you and your enemy to make it a decent alternative spammable

Ability is just a cheap way to dump your rage and one of the first abilities you get in the game. You really want to make it the new worse version of spellbreaker?

Still does less damage than spellbreaker at a higher cost, you could even drop the base damage by 10% so its still useful as a debuff. And I dont see what it being one of the first abilities you get has to do with anything - why are useless abilities a good thing for the game?

Spoiler:

#10 Keep on choppin - Not 2h, but as a 2h build can get it, id change it from ap gain (useless) to morale (sort of useful). Not sure on the numbers, or if it should be a flat gain or just simply give +x% morale gain for 10s. Or something like that.

Well this could be made into a copy of Rampage, but this would counter WH Repel Blasphemy too hard

Never was a big fan of mirroring this to rampage, but its an option i guess

Why Relentless Strike/Throat Slasha is not even mentioned here, being the one of the lowest hitting abilities with a laughable 3sec dot, and other mediocre dots in the middle tree. Or the Fierceness/Bring Da Pain making you 45%+ to be critically hit and providing only 3-5% armour penenetration. Or Even The Odds/Come and Git It toughness buff being more often than not useless with its scaling and 10sec duration. Or the worst detaunt in the game with the ridiculous 50AP cost.
I'm not saying SL/CH should get buffs and these abilities change and might sound a bit buttmad at the proposed changes to my personal favourite class-build combo in the game, but these classes were very strong in the tier4+ game on the live servers that I don't see the reasons to alter then too much, because they are very group dependant, have a way to be countered by punting guard or even just hard train them while they are in berserk, for example.
There is going to be a new forum with the balance discussions and I might make a thread there about both SL/CH and all of their abilitie and the issues there.

As you say I was more waiting on talking about other topics for new threads, so looking forward to them.

Should buff the other underperforming MDPS instead

Agreed, but it doesnt mean we cant talk about slayers/choppas for 2 years until they finally all get buffed.