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Caledor Woods/Eternal Citadel Proposal

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lastalien
Posts: 456

Re: Caledor Woods/Eternal Citadel Proposal

Post#51 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:50 am

Tankbeardz wrote:In order to appeal to as many people as possible, I would suggest some additional rules, that must be agreed upon before a match.

Possibilities include:
•Limit of 1 character type per group (1 wp, 1 kobs, etc.)
•Mirrored matchups like 2-2-2 or 1-3-2
•Mirrored classes (e.g. BW vs Sorc, Melee WP vs Melee DoK)
•Racial Battles (e.g. Greenskins vs Dwarves)
•Etc

For What?


The basic idea is quite good. I support the additional stimulation of 6 * 6. For developers, this will allow more accurate to do balance setting.
But it seems to complicate its not worth it, especially to attract the GM for this. It looks like the work scheme with increased awards to medals, repeating the quest - awards - dyes, new look models of weapons.

I am opposed to the complexity of the rules, as it will limit the participants. The simpler rules and ticket the greater the number of participants may be interested.
Petitbras (SW), Threeend (BW), Arrgoor (SL), Popovich (KoTBs), Semenich (Eng), Ancle (WP), Lastalien (WL), Alienessa (AM)

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Gerv
Banned
Posts: 811

Re: Caledor Woods/Eternal Citadel Proposal

Post#52 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:10 am

roadkillrobin wrote:The EC/CW tournament you want just arnt goin to work like you want it to. Its objective based and you can just turtle trough both of em with 3 tanks + 3 heals just to make sure yiu don't lose. Game has never supported these kinda things due to being objective based. And if you add "house rules" to the maps you gonna need a GM spectator to make sure those rules are followed.
That is not a problem because none of the groups that play 6v6 in CW or EC play the objective. We just play for who gets more kills and better plays.
Sia - DoK - Lords
Boyd - WP - O.S.

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Rebuke
Posts: 388

Re: Caledor Woods/Eternal Citadel Proposal

Post#53 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:24 am

If I remember correctly didnt Peter already make a website with basic functions to manage ranked competitions?

Maybe the guy that made the new Career Builder could assist into making such a feature a user friendly (accessible) addition to the website?

Anyway I would be interested to join but Aftershock is currently in a december/january-dip and I am seriously considering switching to Elysium for a while.

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Caledor Woods/Eternal Citadel Proposal

Post#54 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:17 pm

Gerv wrote:
roadkillrobin wrote:The EC/CW tournament you want just arnt goin to work like you want it to. Its objective based and you can just turtle trough both of em with 3 tanks + 3 heals just to make sure yiu don't lose. Game has never supported these kinda things due to being objective based. And if you add "house rules" to the maps you gonna need a GM spectator to make sure those rules are followed.
That is not a problem because none of the groups that play 6v6 in CW or EC play the objective. We just play for who gets more kills and better plays.
Yeah but Wargrimnar talking about adding a elimination ladder with prize rewards. This should be open to everyone. Not just 6v6 groups that runs with their own house rules of playing the SC. So to optimize this you just need to win the objetives and not die to climb the ladder. Thats why its not working. And this is also kinda were 6v6 falls apart a bit. Coz 2 groups vs 2 groups would probobly easiliy dps trough that set up.Even x2. But I doubt a 6man can do it.
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Tankbeardz
Posts: 629

Re: Caledor Woods/Eternal Citadel Proposal

Post#55 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:20 pm

lastalien wrote:
Tankbeardz wrote:In order to appeal to as many people as possible, I would suggest some additional rules, that must be agreed upon before a match.

Possibilities include:
•Limit of 1 character type per group (1 wp, 1 kobs, etc.)
•Mirrored matchups like 2-2-2 or 1-3-2
•Mirrored classes (e.g. BW vs Sorc, Melee WP vs Melee DoK)
•Racial Battles (e.g. Greenskins vs Dwarves)
•Etc

For What?


The basic idea is quite good. I support the additional stimulation of 6 * 6. For developers, this will allow more accurate to do balance setting.
But it seems to complicate its not worth it, especially to attract the GM for this. It looks like the work scheme with increased awards to medals, repeating the quest - awards - dyes, new look models of weapons.

I am opposed to the complexity of the rules, as it will limit the participants. The simpler rules and ticket the greater the number of participants may be interested.
To support as much growth as possible. If you limit yourself to cheesedick 6v6 and FOTM, you limit your player base and you will scare away newcomers. There are very few solid premades out there and the guilds that run them don't usually run an optimal setup for lack of challenge. I didn't say you needed all of them...I was just throwing out possibilities. I'm not so sure why adding a rule or two makes this too complicated.

Cimba
Posts: 376

Re: Caledor Woods/Eternal Citadel Proposal

Post#56 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:50 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Spoiler:
Letting the rocks jumble around in my head for a bit on this. It's trickier than you might think.

All of this should be considered exploratory, and will require the RoR team commitment to fully implement if they deem it worthwhile.

6v6 Team Scenario Tournament

Eternal Citadel (left bracket) vs Caledor Woods (right bracket)

Would require at least 24 interested Players.
4 team bracket
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Would require at least 48 interested Players.
8 team bracket
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Primary Team Composition

- Characters must be R40. Each player MUST have a R40 Order AND Destro character. No other requirements or restrictions on renown, gear, or consumables during battles.
- Each team will have a 10 slot roster. 6 slots MUST be filled to create a team.
- Team Names must be assigned in accordance to the ToS, naturally.
- One Team Captain must be assigned to declare the results of a match. They do not necessarily need to participate in the match, but they will be responsible for posting the results.
- Each team will have Destro or Order as their primary faction. In the event two Destro teams meet in battle, the one with the better record will maintain their faction. If teams meet with even records, random assignment will occur to determine the matchup (unless mutually agreed upon).
- Your Primary team will be the one in which you are selected of the first 6 slots.
- You must select 2 characters (1 Order, 1 Destro) to dedicate to your Primary team before brackets are filled, these characters are LOCKED IN.
- Brackets will be randomly assigned, all Primary teams and their declared characters will be LOCKED IN. This will be announced 1 day before the lock occurs for any final adjustments.

Initially, teams will only have 6 Players assigned to the team. Each player must declare 2 characters, one from each faction. This means each team should coordinate a potential comp for playing either Order or Destro (although you will represent your primary faction throughout).

Secondary Team Composition

- Your Secondary team members may only be assigned after the brackets are filled, using the remaining 4 slots.
- Each Player cannot have Secondary team on the same side of the bracket as your Primary team.
- You may have a Secondary slot even if you were not assigned to a Primary slot.
- Each player must select 2 characters dedicated to either the Primary or Secondary team, but these cannot overlap with either team. (Potentially, each Player may have 2 Destro and 2 Order Characters involved in the entire bracket at best)
- If both your Primary and Secondary teams make it to the finals, you MUST play with your Primary team.
- One week after Brackets are assigned, all teams will be locked in with their players and declared characters. At this point, Bracket Battles may begin.

Bracket Battles

- You must battle on your side of the bracket to accumulate wins against your opponent. If you are on the left side, you must fight in Eternal Citadel. Right side, Caledor Woods.
- Queue appropriately, and coordinate with your opponents whenever possible. Incidental victories will count provided they are declared and validated.
- Team Captains must post a screenshot of their victory. If all valid characters are present on both sides, it will be declared a WIN. Characters renamed during the entirety of the 6v6 tournament will no longer count as valid members of the team.
- Each matchup will be a best of 5. The first Team Captain to declare three victories will move on to the next stage.
- Each matchup will be held for 1 week.
- In the event a matchup is not finished within the week, the team with the most wins will progress. If both teams are tied, the first team to record a win against their next opponent will advance. If neither team completes a match, both teams will be disqualified and removed, and previous wins will not count for rewards.
- Home field advantage will be determined by the highest number of wins/ties for the Final. This means the first two battles of the Final will be in the scenario of the bracket finalist. Example of progress as EC, EC, CW, CW, EC, (CW), (EC), etc. (to account for possible ties during the final)
- The Final MUST have a GM present during each battle and will also be a best of 5. If a GM does not validate a match, it will not be considered.

POTENTIAL REWARDS
- Each victory recorded will result in additional 10 emblems for the 6 characters of the winning team present, and 5 emblems for the 4 characters on the winning team not present.
- In the event of an 8 team bracket, winners of the semi-final will receive a trophy as well.
- Winners of the final will receive an additional trophy, and a title. A banner with the Team Name will be created in the winning factions capital city. Near Sigmar's Temple, or The Monolith. This will be the faction initially declared by the team as their primary.
- All rewards will be totaled at the end of Final. These may be claimed by contacting a GM. Rewards will be assigned on a Character basis. Any name changes before rewards are assigned will invalidate your claims. No rewards will be assigned outside of this period.
I see you spend some thoughts on this. Overall sounds pretty good. One problem I see is that you're required to have both destro and order teams. I guess most of the established grps currently have teams/chars on both sides. However this could be a rather high entry barrier for a new team.

I think at the beginning a simple round robin system (every destro team plays every order team, maybe multiple times) would be enough. If you want to determine then the overall first place just do a simple final between the two best ranked teams. This would obviousily depend on how many grps sign up. If suddenly there is huge interest then you would need multiple groups etc.

You could allow teams to sign up with order and destro teams. If they rank top on both sides, then they are simply the best team on the server.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Caledor Woods/Eternal Citadel Proposal

Post#57 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:51 pm

roadkillrobin wrote:
Gerv wrote:
roadkillrobin wrote:The EC/CW tournament you want just arnt goin to work like you want it to. Its objective based and you can just turtle trough both of em with 3 tanks + 3 heals just to make sure yiu don't lose. Game has never supported these kinda things due to being objective based. And if you add "house rules" to the maps you gonna need a GM spectator to make sure those rules are followed.
That is not a problem because none of the groups that play 6v6 in CW or EC play the objective. We just play for who gets more kills and better plays.
Yeah but Wargrimnar talking about adding a elimination ladder with prize rewards. This should be open to everyone. Not just 6v6 groups that runs with their own house rules of playing the SC. So to optimize this you just need to win the objetives and not die to climb the ladder. Thats why its not working. And this is also kinda were 6v6 falls apart a bit. Coz 2 groups vs 2 groups would probobly easiliy dps trough that set up.Even x2. But I doubt a 6man can do it.

It should be open to everyone, yes (and that's the whole idea of such an event, to get more interest in the scene), but the rules should be standard 6v6 rules, i.e. kills, not flags. This is indisputable. I do like some of tank's suggestions though.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Caledor Woods/Eternal Citadel Proposal

Post#58 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:20 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:
roadkillrobin wrote:
Gerv wrote:
That is not a problem because none of the groups that play 6v6 in CW or EC play the objective. We just play for who gets more kills and better plays.
Yeah but Wargrimnar talking about adding a elimination ladder with prize rewards. This should be open to everyone. Not just 6v6 groups that runs with their own house rules of playing the SC. So to optimize this you just need to win the objetives and not die to climb the ladder. Thats why its not working. And this is also kinda were 6v6 falls apart a bit. Coz 2 groups vs 2 groups would probobly easiliy dps trough that set up.Even x2. But I doubt a 6man can do it.

It should be open to everyone, yes (and that's the whole idea of such an event, to get more interest in the scene), but the rules should be standard 6v6 rules, i.e. kills, not flags. This is indisputable. I do like some of tank's suggestions though.
Sc maps are sc maps with an objective. Either Devs tweak the maps to be a kill counter objective or you play it as it is now. You win the SC by winning the objective. Those are the official 6v6 rules for the SC's. There is nothing that enforces house rulings. So if you add prizes to such a thing you need coded rules. Not inofficial ones. Remove the official prizes and Im ok with it. But if you add a untradeble progression currency as a price it needs to be the official rules for Scenarios.
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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Caledor Woods/Eternal Citadel Proposal

Post#59 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:40 pm

roadkillrobin wrote:
peterthepan3 wrote:
roadkillrobin wrote:
Yeah but Wargrimnar talking about adding a elimination ladder with prize rewards. This should be open to everyone. Not just 6v6 groups that runs with their own house rules of playing the SC. So to optimize this you just need to win the objetives and not die to climb the ladder. Thats why its not working. And this is also kinda were 6v6 falls apart a bit. Coz 2 groups vs 2 groups would probobly easiliy dps trough that set up.Even x2. But I doubt a 6man can do it.

It should be open to everyone, yes (and that's the whole idea of such an event, to get more interest in the scene), but the rules should be standard 6v6 rules, i.e. kills, not flags. This is indisputable. I do like some of tank's suggestions though.
Sc maps are sc maps with an objective. Either Devs tweak the maps to be a kill counter objective or you play it as it is now. You win the SC by winning the objective. Those are the official 6v6 rules for the SC's. There is nothing that enforces house rulings. So if you add prizes to such a thing you need coded rules. Not inofficial ones. Remove the official prizes and Im ok with it. But if you add a untradeble progression currency as a price it needs to be the official rules for Scenarios.
As I have already said: people do 6v6 for kills, it has always been this way. In Caledor Woods, no premade captures the flag unless other team concedes/has a DC. This is how it is. If you attempt to change it or make it objective-focused, it will lose interest and you'll just piss off the majority of 6v6 teams. There are already a plethora of objective-based PvE scenarios for people who wish to enjoy that.

Do most people bother on the objectives in scenarios? No, they focus on kills. People simply prefer killing over objectives, and in the 6v6 SC this is more apparent.

Why would someone who doesn't do it dictate how or how it shouldn't be, when people who actively do the scene are telling you - based on their experience - how it should be, so as to appeal to the largest majority of people who play in this scene?


What is 'official rules' for a dead game? This is RoR - not WAR.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Caledor Woods/Eternal Citadel Proposal

Post#60 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:03 pm

Wow you just doesnt get it. Wargrimn want to make a system with rewards based on two scenarios wich the outcome is determined by the SC score. To get the highest score in that scenario you need to play the objective. It doesn't mather how how you think it should be played or what the innofficial house rules you use. Aslong as there are no rewards on the line it doesn't mather what made up rules you play by. But once there are rewards there also need to be set rules. Its the difference between schoolyard soccer were you think dribnling the ball around is fun. And no referee bothers to check for fauls. And a luege ladder were you add prices in the end thats actually worth something. They won't care if you like dribnling the ball around. They will do the moast optimal play to get the price. So either Devs code and change CW and EC to be a killcount objective for the sake of the ladder. Or else the issue of turtle cheezy groups wil apear to aclaim prices.
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