Reintroductions and reflections.

[adei]

Lolwat? Could you say that again for the people in the back of the class. Because it sounded like you said “The one who shall not be named, is the ONLY one who understands this community”.

Having been on the team I can say that without torque this project would not exist considering the amount of work he put into it, it would be far worse off without him. The reason everyone dislikes him is because hes honest and people don't like that, he tells you how it is. This community is full of egomaniacs, hard to move things along with that.

The argument has never been about the amount of work he’s done. I think you should read through the novel to get a better understanding as to what everyone’s problem is. Never has the amount of time spent on the project come into question...

Yeah I know you are upset because he said mean things, end of the day that's because the management system is garbage, community manager position is basically irrelevant because they don't do it, and there is really nobody to moderate the leads. And that will never happen. There was a lot of stuff not public which also made the forum usage worse for everyone on it.

[Kragg]

but as far i know, we don't punish anyone to have an opinion... unless i'm completely blind...

Ah, almost forgot about those quality staff responses, sadly topic was closed so have to copy them manual. Its in my topic suggesting changes to scenarios to prevent cowardly playing next to guards for safety and protection instead actually going out to the field and taking the risk.

Wargrimnir: "Know your enemy. If they want to cheese at guards, take the objective and trash them on the forums. Pretty sure that's the real point of tryhard 6v6 around here."

Torquemadra: "No

get away from the other sides spawn." - and also closed topic that was still discussed.

Topic for the reference: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=26609&start=30

Suprise suprise that was last suggestion topic i made, since it became crystal clear that everyone warning me that theres no point in doing so was right.

80 posts just about you. Impressive. Most impressive. But you are not a master troll just yet.

[Gravord]

but as far i know, we don't punish anyone to have an opinion... unless i'm completely blind...

Ah, almost forgot about those quality staff responses, sadly topic was closed so have to copy them manual. Its in my topic suggesting changes to scenarios to prevent cowardly playing next to guards for safety and protection instead actually going out to the field and taking the risk.

Wargrimnir: "Know your enemy. If they want to cheese at guards, take the objective and trash them on the forums. Pretty sure that's the real point of tryhard 6v6 around here."

Torquemadra: "No

get away from the other sides spawn." - and also closed topic that was still discussed.

Topic for the reference: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=26609&start=30

Suprise suprise that was last suggestion topic i made, since it became crystal clear that everyone warning me that theres no point in doing so was right.

80 posts just about you. Impressive. Most impressive. But you are not a master troll just yet.

Indeed, who i am to compete with 1380 brown nosing posts giving nothing to the issue apart of picking on a person voicing his concerns, simply not my league.

[Stinkyweed]

I concluded long ago, due to the decision making process, implementation of changes, leadership, and retaliation culture, that it was in my best interest to:

1) accept the game as is
2) accept the game changes as is
3) keep my mouth shut in regards to; balance, bugs, changes, recommendations, and any communication between, or perceived between, administration.

I made a personal decision to accept these things as-is because I enjoyed playing the game. When said enjoyment was wanning, I would excuse myself and take a break. I appreciate the overall workload put into recreating this game, but removed myself from trying to help because feedback was not wanted or used, as well as a concern for a misinterpretation/miscommunication resulting in the ban of an IP.

I liked some changes, didn't like others. Liked some of the direction, and of course didn't like others. ...but the game is still fun to me, and that's why I play to rove myself from RL-drama.

After my 2-bronze pieces...welcome back and best of luck with implement the server's vision as you, and your team, see fit.

[Hastykrasty]

I'm speechless about part of the community's behaviour... asking for heads on pikes and seeking vengence... Pathetic, it seems to be in a kindergarden.
These guys of the staff (ALL) are working for free, and some even pay a considerable amount of money (just a tip: the nikname starts for Y...), for letting us enjoy this game, for FREE.

And you throw flak at them (if not something worse). I admire their patience, the banhammer was coming sometimes too late in some occasions, imho.

We are guest here. What do you think to be entitled of? Freedom of speech (maybe because we are on the internet)? Democracy?
It's their house, and if someone tells you to behave in a certain manner into his house, you obey.
If you think that the staff misbehaved or was rude, it was mainly because of the community behaviour (read: we all), not because they're evil. We all have our personal problems, sure, but the level of some trolls (even in this topic) is too high.
In the end, if you're looking for the guilty, you only need to look into a mirror.

Of course feedback from players is important (in the end, it takes two to tango). But it needs to be a REAL feedback. Do we all remember how Live WAR handled feedback? By the loudest whiners... And we all know how "good" it ended...

I've seen only few people give decent feedback with SCREENS, VIDEOS, DATA, LOGS... in other words: PROOFS.
It's not a place for "If...But...Then...Since...". They are useless if not supported by facts (to be honest, the majority of the balance proposals were only conjectures). There are the appropiate forum sections for "opinions".
I have to admit that I'm not the one that contibutes to forum, bugtracker, or feedback in general (I don't play much). And I'm a bad person for this, I know, but atleast I have the decency to be gratefull for their work.

Spoiler:

To give your "feedback/opinion", it doesen't mean this:
Guy says: It's A (no proof)
Staff member says: no, look, it's B for this, this and that.
Guy says: No, It's A (no proof)
Staff member says: provide data of it
Guy says: It's A (no proof)
Staff member says: there was nothing to prove it.
Guy says: It's A (no proof)
Guy says: It's A (no proof) ad nauseam

To Aza: Welcome back and good luck, it's nice to keep the playerbase involved, but heavy filtering is needed.

I propose this as a loading screen tip: "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a harder battle."

[xyeppp]

About time you listened to what I've been telling you for three years - thanks.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

I think, my own personal opinion, is that the problems can be described to two words.

Noblesse oblige

We are all guests of the server but without us there is no server.

Any way to see this is wrong and create problems if you spel of community first ord.dev first this creat only problem.

You love the game?
Wanna see it played and at his.max potential?
Wanna.see ppl enjoy the game.with yiu because this also benefith the game?

The..the game.is at the first place not the dev nor the player y; the game anything that do wrong for the game should.be hit dosent matter who,this is the most pratical.approach and.is.what i belive lead the project in his first steps in t1.

This would creare a sense "community", this js also why :

Some pplshould.really stop.flame.in.this thread and try to forgive and go on but

ALSO

From now on some behaviour at least as i read.it.from.dev side should.have conseguence and anyone in charge with shoulder large enough
Should del with em even removing.ppl

This is the.most pratical approach the time to ask.for some heads is not now but is neither never (ppl can forgive if is constructive.but they cant be make joke.off behind the shoulders , if some.behaviour keep.go some.need to get ride.of em or the ppl doing em)

Tesq I really like you, but I simply cant understand a word you are saying ^^ Cant you please proofread your posts and at least fix all those "." here and there to build some sentences that a normal human being can read?

Ye sy fixed a bit ( not on quote, go.page 28) I wrote it on the beach under the sun and with bad eyes which gona go under surgery at october ( well one of em..i hope at least if these crazy doctors decide what to do...)

[saupreusse]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Any way to see this is wrong and create problems if you spel of community first ord.dev first this creat only problem.

You love the game?
Wanna see it played and at his.max potential?
Wanna.see ppl enjoy the game.with yiu because this also benefith the game?

The..the game.is at the first place not the dev nor the player y; the game anything that do wrong for the game should.be hit dosent matter who,this is the most pratical.approach and.is.what i belive lead the project in his first steps in t1.

This would creare a sense "community", this js also why :

Some pplshould.really stop.flame.in.this thread and try to forgive and go on but

ALSO

From now on some behaviour at least as i read.it.from.dev side should.have conseguence and anyone in charge with shoulder large enough
Should del with em even removing.ppl

This is the.most pratical approach the time to ask.for some heads is not now but is neither never (ppl can forgive if is constructive.but they cant be make joke.off behind the shoulders , if some.behaviour keep.go some.need to get ride.of em or the ppl doing em)

Tesq I really like you, but I simply cant understand a word you are saying ^^ Cant you please proofread your posts and at least fix all those "." here and there to build some sentences that a normal human being can read?

Ye sy fixed a bit ( not on quote, go.page 28) I wrote it on the beach under the sun and with bad eyes which gona go under surgery at october ( well one of em..i hope at least if these crazy doctors decide what to do...)

Wish you the best! Enjoy the holidays

[krillep]

"The relationship between community and staff."
Am I allowed to say finally? Not gonna mention any names, but... this is a free project and all, I get and acknowledge that, but man, some of the staff has been acting like they're the spawn of Gods or something, for a very long time

[dur3al]

Having been on the team I can say that without torque this project would not exist considering the amount of work he put into it, it would be far worse off without him. The reason everyone dislikes him is because hes honest and people don't like that, he tells you how it is. This community is full of egomaniacs, hard to move things along with that.

The argument has never been about the amount of work he’s done. I think you should read through the novel to get a better understanding as to what everyone’s problem is. Never has the amount of time spent on the project come into question...

Yeah I know you are upset because he said mean things, end of the day that's because the management system is garbage, community manager position is basically irrelevant because they don't do it, and there is really nobody to moderate the leads. And that will never happen. There was a lot of stuff not public which also made the forum usage worse for everyone on it.

I believe you're completely missing the whole point of this thread, or perhaps missing it purposefully?

The reason everyone dislikes him is because hes honest and people don't like that

I've no problem with honest or blunt people. The problem is when we're honest back (my case in particular at Changelog 15/11/16 page 22 where I first post until page 25) & he turns into a little teen and starts trowing a fit ending up threatening you and/or outright banning you all the while you're countering what he is telling you with arguments, and he is presenting nothing other then "I know better and careful with what you say back to me because I can ban you". This actually goes along way with many of the staff here.

I'll put here the interaction and all the quotes if people don't want to read the whole thread. It would also be good for all the brown nosers here who "never saw anything like that" to check out first hand.

Spoiler:

What are you talking about? Are you just looking to be annoying or just foolish? StMicheal was talking about DPS which in AB EX means Righteousness/Celerity and as I clearly said using English the drawbacks to this position is built in, you use SR/TE you have no damage bonus, you use DA/RS your damage decreases, all abilities are defendable by normal means too, its only in devotion/vitality that the melee heals are able to avoid being parried/blocked.

Its not a drawback at all, because before they didn't had access to having their stats turning from strength to willpower (depending if they needed to dps or to heal), not needing to spend a tactic slot for aoe detaunt, now all it takes is to correctly use the cooldowns from the covenants depending on the situation, its a terrific buff if you ask me.

Regarding DPS WP, they were an absolute joke as was the Wrath tree and DPS Dok functioned straddling the trees and could easily pump out as much healing as they could damage which they can no longer do. When you say things like "Im guessing" and show a complete lack of understanding it can only mean you havent bothered to read the patch notes because its all right there and I would strongly advise you to take time to read them or take out your own DoK and try them yourself because I for one have better things to do than to read out the patch notes for you because you want a individual set of notes for some unknown reason.

As I mentioned earlier I've played only 1 day with the changes on my WL against melee doks and healer doks so I'm basing my comments on them, but the part where they can become a super good off-healer now while still having access to all the core healing skills & having a huge pool of willpower and with a simple prayer switch still remains, I haven't seen any decent structured comment regarding this yet to contradict my statement.

Let me help you as things seem to be flying over your head, the "point" to this was to make all spec trees viable which you are welcome to assume is a intent for "balance"

I get that, but you did it so while inadvertently breaking balance as I mentioned earlier. I've no problems with that, and I'm here merely giving you feedback, if you consider my feedback complete bullshit since "all the points" are "flying over my head" please say so so I'll refrain from posting in a constructive way anymore.

and just to help you get things in perspective because Im an magnanimous kind of guy DPS doks are easier to put down on my WH because its no longer dot dot TE spam they have incentive to spec torture and to use torture abilities and are reluctant to use RS unless they have to because it cuts their dps output.

Just because you're killing bad or pug players don't prove or help prove any point. The very same thing happened with engineers changes, everyone felt they were Justified until we started running a 4 man premade with them... it didn't take long for players to come to forums and complain about this and that regarding engineers, even causing balance changes that were quickly overturned within hours.

Reply:

What are you talking about? Are you just looking to be annoying or just foolish? StMicheal was talking about DPS which in AB EX means Righteousness/Celerity and as I clearly said using English the drawbacks to this position is built in, you use SR/TE you have no damage bonus, you use DA/RS your damage decreases, all abilities are defendable by normal means too, its only in devotion/vitality that the melee heals are able to avoid being parried/blocked.

Its not a drawback at all, because before they didn't had access to having their stats turning from strength to willpower (depending if they needed to dps or to heal), not needing to spend a tactic slot for aoe detaunt, now all it takes is to correctly use the cooldowns from the covenants depending on the situation, its a terrific buff if you ask me.

Regarding DPS WP, they were an absolute joke as was the Wrath tree and DPS Dok functioned straddling the trees and could easily pump out as much healing as they could damage which they can no longer do. When you say things like "Im guessing" and show a complete lack of understanding it can only mean you havent bothered to read the patch notes because its all right there and I would strongly advise you to take time to read them or take out your own DoK and try them yourself because I for one have better things to do than to read out the patch notes for you because you want a individual set of notes for some unknown reason.

As I mentioned earlier I've played only 1 day with the changes on my WL against melee doks and healer doks so I'm basing my comments on them, but the part where they can become a super good off-healer now while still having access to all the core healing skills & having a huge pool of willpower and with a simple prayer switch still remains, I haven't seen any decent structured comment regarding this yet to contradict my statement.

Let me help you as things seem to be flying over your head, the "point" to this was to make all spec trees viable which you are welcome to assume is a intent for "balance"

I get that, but you did it so while inadvertently breaking balance as I mentioned earlier. I've no problems with that, and I'm here merely giving you feedback, if you consider my feedback complete bullshit since "all the points" are "flying over my head" please say so so I'll refrain from posting in a constructive way anymore.

and just to help you get things in perspective because Im an magnanimous kind of guy DPS doks are easier to put down on my WH because its no longer dot dot TE spam they have incentive to spec torture and to use torture abilities and are reluctant to use RS unless they have to because it cuts their dps output.

Just because you're killing bad or pug players don't prove or help prove any point. The very same thing happened with engineers changes, everyone felt they were Justified until we started running a 4 man premade with them... it didn't take long for players to come to forums and complain about this and that regarding engineers, even causing balance changes that were quickly overturned within hours.

Firstly do not presume as to who I do or do not kill, nor try to make light out of my actual experiences both in and against those on AB EX because unlike you I have actually read the patch notes and understand them and to have the audacity to say it doesnt prove any point while you bleat on about your WL is outright comical.

Your posts here are completely non constructive because you seem to be steadfastly refusing to read the patch notes, you are peddling nothing but hyperbole and false information which is sad because you have a high RR dok you could be testing on and actually be giving real, useful feedback if you were so inclined.

Reply which was deleted and I was given a ban, but then Aza replied himself:

The post before it disappeared was:

First of all I'm not presuming who you kill or do not kill, but as I highlighted your quote above, you said that you've killed players easily because they were reluctant to use skills and stances at their disposal, that equals bad play.. which equals bad players, or inexperienced players, or pug players, etc. I wasn't poking at you at all, but if they had skills at their disposal which would make them survive and they didn't use, because they were "reluctant", then it was their own fault - For example, its like in a 6v6 fight you did not use potions at your disposal because you were reluctant and wanted to save them for later, but it doesn't matter because you died, its just bad play, there is no possible reason for not having used the damn potions. That's why I said either bad players or pug players.

Your posts here are completely non constructive because you seem to be steadfastly refusing to read the patch notes, you are peddling nothing but hyperbole and false information which is sad because you have a high RR dok you could be testing on and actually be giving real, useful feedback if you were so inclined.

I would honestly like confirmation by Azarael on this, or else why would've he posted:

I knew this would end up being a problem. I'll think of some way to kill it.

If my post is so "completely non constructive" why is it that it does seem Azarael understood my points and posted the above, and from what I can read from the new patch notes thread done right after our discussion, he does changes that goes in the direction to address the issue that I stated previously - bare in mind I stated this after only 1 day of playing while all your testers had weeks to test? I played with my dok with the .ab ex in one scenario before switching to order.

@Azarael, if I'm wrong or have my concerns miss-placed please just tell me and I'll gracefully acknowledge, I don't care.

How come I'm doing nothing but "hyperbole and false information" if the Project Leader manages to discuss with me in a formal, normal way with arguments back and forth without resorting to "forum warnings" every time I contradict him?
Now I've to deal with being **** threatened every time I'm one of the few who tries to argue in a formal manner backing up my points and opinion trying to explain as much as I can (check my post at the Engineer Cannon Smash thread) just because you have the "power" to give me forum warnings and threaten to ban me if this is not the "last time"? Why? Because I'm actually giving feedback?

PS: I'm not the one saying I'm a "magnanimous kind of guy", I mean who even says that?

PS2: Reading Morfee's post - and I believe he is a respectable player in the community - I think you can see that my comments were not "false information" since I'm not the only one pointing this factor.

And yes, the problem to which I was referring was mDPS WP/DoK being capable of doing too much healing when switching into Devotion/Vitality and potentially mheal WP/DoK dealing too much damage by using off skills from Grace/Sac and Wrath/Torture. I did intend to rework Divine Fury, Fanaticism and Murderous Intent to debuff all heals, and was looking into the idea of using 1/2 damage + undefendable for all skills in Grace, as they're all buff/heal skills to support the party and it would make some sense.

The least I ask is consistency, if you want to act tough and talk straight, expect the same back at you.

If you died in oRvR, take it like a man and don't go around making excuses & pming whomever killed you that you will change x skill or ability because its to strong or any other stupid excuse for your own failures.

If you died in oRvR and was corpse jumped, don't go at great lengths to try and wind up the player in hopes he say something you can use later on to ban him. Just accept you died, he outplayed you or perhaps not, but stop dragging your whole in-game emotions into things you do as a staff member.

If players present an argument that beat yours, that makes more sense then yours - swallow your pride, admit it and take it into consideration opening the argument trying to find a better solution. That's what grown ups do.

You can tell me that there has to be someone in charge as much as you wish, but it's simply not possible. This is a project of volunteers, some of whom have the source code. It is not a company.

Which is exactly why I said that without any sort of hierarchy or accountability all of this thread is really for nothing in terms of making a better relationship between staff & community, as demonstrated by one of your own:

end of the day that's because the management system is garbage, community manager position is basically irrelevant because they don't do it, and there is really nobody to moderate the leads. And that will never happen.

For the example above, what do you do if one of the leads starts power-leveling accounts and selling it? Nothing because "oh our hands are tied".. well good luck with this project then.

RE: Balance Forums

Perhaps a good idea would be to have a central point of reference detailing the team's views on what the classes should be, their play styles, how they play, strengths, weaknesses, interactions and synergies with other classes, ie the fundamental concept behind each class, and where the team wants to take the classes in terms of balances (no easy task).

Then maybe the balance forums would be more productive. Suggestions could then be made that push the classes towards the team's idea of each class, in a more collaborative way within the community. Also preventing wasting time on proposals that dont fit the team's ideas.

This would also have the knockon effect of us better understanding the changes that are made, as we can see the direction we are going, how the change fits into the teams class concept, and that their is some kind of long term plan/reason for the balance change.

This is a good point. I will set something out shortly.

As I said previously, stating your vision is very important when also taking things such as balance into consideration, not only making this for the classes designs you want and which roles they should cover with their strength and weaknesses, but also how do you envision, for example, fortress combats to be in the future too.