[Feedback] Changes of morale

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Rockalypse
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#31 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:44 pm

Natherul wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:32 pm
Ill reiterate again that gains can be easily (from my side) lowered if needed. Also note that bigger base gain means that effectively pumps are worse as they already builds fast without them.

That said I personally agree that 25 is too much as well but I erred on the side of caution as the last time we changed morale people were up in arms about it. Biggest point was to remove a scalar which made 0 sense and only caused confusion to players and added a stomp mechanic to the realm that was currently already outnumbering their enemies and as such already had an advantage.
As several people mentioned here - concern can be with high end morales gain (when you get m3 and m4 too fast).
May be instead of trying to find ideal gain per second number it is worth to consider changing morale bars volume?

It is also worth imo to discuss what exact time team/players think is ideal for each m1, m2, m3 and m4 to pop after, feedback on made change can be useful, but why not to decide on such time before and tinker around it?

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oaliaen
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#32 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:46 pm

Spoiler:
So you guys buff morals to ppl survive more in battle? Hmm..
Doesn't seem like a feedback.
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Tesq
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#33 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:53 pm

oaliaen wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:46 pm
So you guys buff morals to ppl survive more in battle? Hmm..
exatly it's pointless do this talk now where the balance of morales is essentialy bad, def morales dont work vs off one, and off morales are all pretty bag scaled or inconsistently balanced between each other.

for now increase morales will just make figh tlast less, we alredy had a direct proof the one week with moral gain at 36/s; fights lasted too few; we also had proof from live with sov meta; thx to some sov ability to reset enemy morales to have longer fights till 1.3.6

probably a good value is around 18/s considering current moral bar volume and boost stuff.
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Lokiusus
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#34 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:12 pm

DanielWinner wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:05 pm
I'd like to express my feedback in a list of pros and cons.
Spoiler:
Pros:
- Fights became much faster and exciting. Gameplay received good portion of steroids.
- It brought more diversity to builds since m4s stopped to be something that happens only at forts snooze-fest-funneling (which is also get some speed-up and it's good)
- Gave a breath of fresh air to Rdps classes which were stomped by super mobile mdps.
- Gameplay became just a bit more complex since you have to predict and expect your opponents to use their morals which became something to play around, counter-play and solid part of the whole game.

Cons:
- Some people are concerned that it may bring morals dumps into the game.
that wouldn't an issue if amount of moral pumps matched amount of moral drains.
- Excludes possible turtling in some cases (you can't fight for too long because morals will resolve it quite soon) but brings it to the table in other cases (rely heavily on m3-4s and just survive till them). Quite controversial.
Again if there were more ways to prevent people from getting quick m4s it wouldn't be an issue most likely.
Just some counterpoint questions here:

1) do we really want the already strong performing class archetype of RDPS to receive a way to blow up their counter archetype (mobile MDPS) with unavoidable damage? Do they really need that power boost? I mean, in the previous meta when MDPS goes in to kill RDPS they’re likely to get swarmed and killed, did it need to be quicker/easier?

2) is quick combat and builds which focus on morales “fun”? I understand blowing people up is funny, but if fights are decided by who gets their M4s off first, these fights are consistently going to be 10 seconds long. Maybe it’s a personal preference thing, but I always find myself happier losing a back-and-forth battle than winning a morale bomb stompfest.

3) I don’t know how you predict and play around morales besides timing hard CC for when you think an individual might have it, finding more chokepoints to funnel (something we all love so much), and trying to pump harder than the enemy. My experience has been that whoever bombs first wins, which doesn’t seem very tactical to me, but I’m maybe just a dirty NA scrub.
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DanielWinner
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#35 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:30 pm

Lokiusus wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:12 pm
DanielWinner wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:05 pm
I'd like to express my feedback in a list of pros and cons.
Spoiler:
Pros:
- Fights became much faster and exciting. Gameplay received good portion of steroids.
- It brought more diversity to builds since m4s stopped to be something that happens only at forts snooze-fest-funneling (which is also get some speed-up and it's good)
- Gave a breath of fresh air to Rdps classes which were stomped by super mobile mdps.
- Gameplay became just a bit more complex since you have to predict and expect your opponents to use their morals which became something to play around, counter-play and solid part of the whole game.

Cons:
- Some people are concerned that it may bring morals dumps into the game.
that wouldn't an issue if amount of moral pumps matched amount of moral drains.
- Excludes possible turtling in some cases (you can't fight for too long because morals will resolve it quite soon) but brings it to the table in other cases (rely heavily on m3-4s and just survive till them). Quite controversial.
Again if there were more ways to prevent people from getting quick m4s it wouldn't be an issue most likely.
Just some counterpoint questions here:
Spoiler:
1) do we really want the already strong performing class archetype of RDPS to receive a way to blow up their counter archetype (mobile MDPS) with unavoidable damage? Do they really need that power boost? I mean, in the previous meta when MDPS goes in to kill RDPS they’re likely to get swarmed and killed, did it need to be quicker/easier?

2) is quick combat and builds which focus on morales “fun”? I understand blowing people up is funny, but if fights are decided by who gets their M4s off first, these fights are consistently going to be 10 seconds long. Maybe it’s a personal preference thing, but I always find myself happier losing a back-and-forth battle than winning a morale bomb stompfest.

3) I don’t know how you predict and play around morales besides timing hard CC for when you think an individual might have it, finding more chokepoints to funnel (something we all love so much), and trying to pump harder than the enemy. My experience has been that whoever bombs first wins, which doesn’t seem very tactical to me, but I’m maybe just a dirty NA scrub.
1) At that point I mentioned small-scale/SC fights where rdps get stomped by melees in most cases. More reliable m2s may make it a bit more balanced, so any cc from melee/healer's stagger won't be an insta death for any range. And when it comes to RvR balance, it won't change much since most of rdps plays in melee range anyway and they don't have to be afraid of impossibility of kiting, let's say, some WL. Same goes for funnels, keeps and forts - it's a close combat and faster morals won't change much in MeleeVSRanges balance, it affects global meta but not those two alone.
2) As you said it might be personal preference thing but as you also said usually fights comes to morals in any way so why turtle. Faster fights may give you more fights in general than slow turtling and waiting, for example, at fort for several minutes to get m4 and try to push - it will always come to m4s in the end.
3) The game is also not only RvR zerg fest and funnels where counter plays are drains and hard CC at best. At smaller scales there are more possible ways to play around enemy morals since detaunts actually matter there, you won't be one-shotted in a second by 6+ M4s so it's possible to out-heal/sustain moral damage and etc.
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peterthepan3
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#36 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:44 pm

RDPS getting 'stomped' by melees is - 9 times out of 10 - due to poor positioning from RDPS, and bad CC from tanks. You can easily keep out of range until your FM is ready.

Fights will actually be longer, with tanks having access to M2 and M4s at a much, much quicker pace. The fights that will be quicker will be comps who turtle, with no intention of really fighting, until their respective morale dumps are ready, at which point they dump, hurr durr.
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DanielWinner
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#37 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:02 pm

Spoiler:
peterthepan3 wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:44 pm
RDPS getting 'stomped' by melees is - 9 times out of 10 - due to poor positioning from RDPS, and bad CC from tanks. You can easily keep out of range until your FM is ready.
We are going off topic here but it's simply not true. WL can reach 65ft distance very quickly, pounce is on 10 seconds KD, you basically never will get rid of WL in 9 out of 10 cases unless you m2, flee and your tanks hard cc WL. Hell how can rdps keep distance when even healers get caught by WLs on constant basis. Not to say about 100 ft range staggers, no position or range would save you from it really.
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#38 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:22 pm

The increase is moral gain in my opinion only helps to feed bomb warbands, faf about run in dump morals collect free cheese.
The removal of the scalar is good I personally would have inverted the scalar to hinder the zergs but that discution is probably excluded by the comments on resources needed to do that calc.

The problem is put the morals in proper built warband etc they in themselves go from “mini game” to all important.
Most players who like the game and are not just ego types enjoy a goof fight and not just bomb without even targeting, the moral gain will just reinforce need for BW/Soc with associated M2 for area bombing

In short the current level is too high and here I have to agree with Peterthepan (I try not to but on this occasion I think he is right) that a simple removal of the scalar was good and the increase in the base rate not a good thing.
Edited to help ppl read :) version one was a mind dump, messy :)

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ztil
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#39 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:16 pm

I like the removal of the Scalar. I also like the 25 moral/s base rate compared to the 10 morale /s rate. Because as its been now its been rare to even see the morale abilities unless you were joining with warbands and participating in large scale battles. Best example of seeing m4 would be in siege which is unfortunate. Because morale abilities are a part of this game and they are meant to be usable not only in very few limited situations.

With base set to 25/s smaller groups or even solo players get to see and use their morale abilities more frequently even in short skirmishes. (If they survive for 144 seconds that is. And the m1 m2 abilities Which are defensive for many classes can be used even in a group/solo situation early on in the fight where they are maybe most needed.

So all in all I really like the changes and I sincerely hope that they are not reverted back to a low rate where morale abilities are rarely seen. Especially now without the scalar it would make morale abilities practically useless except for siege situations where you are ”in combat” for longer time and war bands would still bomb each other it would just take a little longer. Solo/groups would rarely see them unless they have morale pump abilities because fights are rarely that long.

I think I read somewhere (maybe in this thread even) that on live the base rate was 36 morale/s. I suppose this is because the original game designers wanted players to be able to use their morales often and they thought 100s was a good amount of time to wait for a m4 to activate. 100s is still plenty of time in a skirmish.

Of course good points have been made that fights shouldn’t be about who reaches morale bomb first, but personally I would rather see those morale abilities adjusted or removed (if there are m2’s that are too strong) than morale gain being too slow. Or modifications could be done to some classes that have too strong personal morale pumps. Sometimes it feels like some tank classes reaches their m4 before I’m even m2.

The x2 damage m2 morale was already removed from this game for a similar reason I expect (a bit unfortunate for us ranged squigs and SWs perhaps since we are already not wanted due to low AoE and little utility) but similar changes could be done to other offensive m2 abilities to make them a bit less powerful or
moved up to m3/m4. Or war band morale drains could be made more powerful to counter bomb-situations but still make defensive morales usable in smaller scale or solo situations.
Last edited by ztil on Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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peterthepan3
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#40 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:03 pm

6v6 has been reduced to who can pump to cheesy M4s the quickest again, so that's incredibly fun.

/s
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