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anrix
Posts: 47

Re: Guard Change

Post#21 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:25 pm

I never said I was having issues, I said it was a quality of life change. And other have voiced concern, depending on server lag and click speed of guard (meaning if you have a high twitch rate and click fast the tank is penalized,) may get unsuccessful setting of guard. Also a minority of tanks switch guard, while many just throw it up there and keep it on the same target forever, which may also be partially attributed to the clunkiness of the mechanic and how much they care about dealing with its cumbersomeness.

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Ototo
Posts: 1015

Re: Guard Change

Post#22 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:46 pm

anrix wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:25 pm
I never said I was having issues, I said it was a quality of life change. And other have voiced concern, depending on server lag and click speed of guard (meaning if you have a high twitch rate and click fast the tank is penalized,) may get unsuccessful setting of guard. Also a minority of tanks switch guard, while many just throw it up there and keep it on the same target forever, which may also be partially attributed to the clunkiness of the mechanic and how much they care about dealing with its cumbersomeness.
But attributing it to lag, laziness, or bad timing is still no excuse. That can be argued for every single stance mechanic. Imagine that you can instantly buff Willpower and Toughness, or whatever, to your Oath Friend on clicking. May not seem a lot, and indeed it is not, but for players guessing the minimal amount of advantage possible it can be huge. Now move that to 50% incoming damage.

I really don't understand why you want to oversimplify a defensive mechanic even more than it is. You are trying to move the discussion to extremes that are often never seen, while I try to reason the vast amount of examples in the opposite direction that currently exist in the game. 2+ clicks was always how you get yourself to the top skills in this game: Stance+Vengeance of Naggarythe deal zero damage, but sure will substantially increase your damaging potential for the 3rd click.
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zumos2
Posts: 323

Re: Guard Change

Post#23 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:47 pm

Ototo wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:46 pm
anrix wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:25 pm
I never said I was having issues, I said it was a quality of life change. And other have voiced concern, depending on server lag and click speed of guard (meaning if you have a high twitch rate and click fast the tank is penalized,) may get unsuccessful setting of guard. Also a minority of tanks switch guard, while many just throw it up there and keep it on the same target forever, which may also be partially attributed to the clunkiness of the mechanic and how much they care about dealing with its cumbersomeness.
But attributing it to lag, laziness, or bad timing is still no excuse. That can be argued for every single stance mechanic. Imagine that you can instantly buff Willpower and Toughness, or whatever, to your Oath Friend on clicking. May not seem a lot, and indeed it is not, but for players guessing the minimal amount of advantage possible it can be huge. Now move that to 50% incoming damage.

I really don't understand why you want to oversimplify a defensive mechanic even more than it is. You are trying to move the discussion to extremes that are often never seen, while I try to reason the vast amount of examples in the opposite direction that currently exist in the game. 2+ clicks was always how you get yourself to the top skills in this game: Stance+Vengeance of Naggarythe deal zero damage, but sure will substantially increase your damaging potential for the 3rd click.
You clearly have no idea what issue we are talking about as you keep insisting that guard swap double click is similar to stance swapping on SW/Mara or to dark protector/oath friend + using an ability. IT IS NOT. There is some weird lag/delay problem where if you double the guard button, it does not properly take away guard and then apply. Often it will just take it away from your previous target and does not apply to your new, even though you pressed it twice. If the devs could fix this issue this whole thread would most likely not even exist.
Zumos - Member of Red Guard

Current Guilds: Deep and Dry - Order ----- The Unlikely Plan / Dark Omen - Destruction

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Ototo
Posts: 1015

Re: Guard Change

Post#24 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:27 pm

zumos2 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:47 pm
Spoiler:
Ototo wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:46 pm
anrix wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:25 pm
I never said I was having issues, I said it was a quality of life change. And other have voiced concern, depending on server lag and click speed of guard (meaning if you have a high twitch rate and click fast the tank is penalized,) may get unsuccessful setting of guard. Also a minority of tanks switch guard, while many just throw it up there and keep it on the same target forever, which may also be partially attributed to the clunkiness of the mechanic and how much they care about dealing with its cumbersomeness.
But attributing it to lag, laziness, or bad timing is still no excuse. That can be argued for every single stance mechanic. Imagine that you can instantly buff Willpower and Toughness, or whatever, to your Oath Friend on clicking. May not seem a lot, and indeed it is not, but for players guessing the minimal amount of advantage possible it can be huge. Now move that to 50% incoming damage.

I really don't understand why you want to oversimplify a defensive mechanic even more than it is. You are trying to move the discussion to extremes that are often never seen, while I try to reason the vast amount of examples in the opposite direction that currently exist in the game. 2+ clicks was always how you get yourself to the top skills in this game: Stance+Vengeance of Naggarythe deal zero damage, but sure will substantially increase your damaging potential for the 3rd click.
You clearly have no idea what issue we are talking about as you keep insisting that guard swap double click is similar to stance swapping on SW/Mara or to dark protector/oath friend + using an ability. IT IS NOT. There is some weird lag/delay problem where if you double the guard button, it does not properly take away guard and then apply. Often it will just take it away from your previous target and does not apply to your new, even though you pressed it twice. If the devs could fix this issue this whole thread would most likely not even exist.
I understand completely the thread, and don't need you to explain it to me. Thanks, but no, thanks.

You all seem to purposely ignore the wide range of examples that I have brought to just focus in the minimal amount of exceptions. Enemy, addon that every tank performing these kind of swapping has installed, informs you of your guarded target and if it's active. The very button informs you.

If you want a thread to ask for fixes to lag; fine, make one: That happens with many of the skills that don't incur in GCD, and would be nice to find the spot where exploits can't happen while rewarding true skill, but remember that the igcd happens for all classes and skills of this type.

Making a thread to reduce 1 click of an overly powerful skill and so reducing the very little time and attention that it requires to zero, no. It's powerful as it is, and people edging the efficiency of it have addons, even though for other things, to inform them of the things that you argue. You are trying to fool people and/or arguments into thinking that's not the case, but It is not true. Hell, I can even assure you that most of the tanks we are speaking of have NerfedButton the situation to the point of adding it to the chain on a health check by now, and that's why it's bad to have it on 1 button without at least GCD, period.
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Phantasm
Posts: 140

Re: Guard Change

Post#25 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:40 pm

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zumos2 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:38 pm
Ototo wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:46 pm
MedV wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:32 pm
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Stance dancing for Mara and SW take one click. OP is asking to make guard swap the same as stance dancing for the other classes. Your argument makes 0 sense.
Not true. It's 2 click: One for the stance change, other for the skill that you want to perform. Exactly the same amount of clicks. I presume that you either don't stance-dance too much, or that you do it for extended periods of time. This situation is comparable only if you are constantly trying to take advantage of it, same as switching guard has the same goal, or moving fast to snare covenant b4 dropping frontal AoEs in DoKs, in example.

EDIT: It was incredibly laconic and unclear the 1st time.
It is not nearly as smooth as Mara/SW changing stance and then using ability or SM/BO changing stance and then using an ability. I've had a lot of times where I double pressed guard and didnt properly swap (as it should). There must be some underlying tech issue there. If that is resolved and quickly pressing twice always works then I would be happy as well. Otherwise having guard instantly swap to your target seems like a good solution to me. The only question is how do you remove guard then? Do you make so that when you press guard without a target eligable for guarding that it gets removed? Or do you make a seperate button to remove guard (kinda like how you have a button to remove pets).
Why wont you make 2 keys with guards, one for off other for on. Thats how I use it. Only difference is u need a defensive target instead of offensive to make it work. Pressing 2 keys without CD, thats how you maximise your timings. Literally almost every class got that mechanic, WEs stealth, stance dance, petclasses, Sorc/BW AP menagement skill etc.

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zumos2
Posts: 323

Re: Guard Change

Post#26 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:53 pm

I always wonder why I keep reading forums with people who cannot listen and think they know everything best, when in reality they would just get one-pushed by any top premade. Just gotta hope the devs know better.
Zumos - Member of Red Guard

Current Guilds: Deep and Dry - Order ----- The Unlikely Plan / Dark Omen - Destruction

anrix
Posts: 47

Re: Guard Change

Post#27 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:17 pm

zumos2 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:53 pm
I always wonder why I keep reading forums with people who cannot listen and think they know everything best, when in reality they would just get one-pushed by any top premade. Just gotta hope the devs know better.
I agree with this. I am going to end this here, as the biggest advocate against this QoL change to guard does not even have a tank that qualifies for ranked scs, and only one low rr tank that is even 40, meaning he is not speaking from experience of using this skill, just arguing to argue some elitist agenda.

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Ototo
Posts: 1015

Re: Guard Change

Post#28 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:30 pm

anrix wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:17 pm
zumos2 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:53 pm
I always wonder why I keep reading forums with people who cannot listen and think they know everything best, when in reality they would just get one-pushed by any top premade. Just gotta hope the devs know better.
I agree with this. I am going to end this here, as the biggest advocate against this QoL change to guard does not even have a tank that qualifies for ranked scs, and only one low rr tank that is even 40, meaning he is not speaking from experience of using this skill, just arguing to argue some elitist agenda.
If my arguments are wrong, feel free to counter them. I just said that this so called QoL is not, and that will be exploited cause in fact tanks are mostly called guard-bots for a reason. The skill is extremely powerful and even a minimal change can have consequences. I listed some of the ones that i dislike and proposed solutions for each of them. Attacking me it's not an argument, further more when my signature is extremely outdated, like T1-only-age outdated in fact. I have only recently returned to some of the characters in it, having spent most of the time in other characters, so your fail there for presuming instead of asking. As a third point, are you aware than Guard is a level 10 skill? Maybe you don't, cause even the lowest tank that I still have laying around in my signature has at least level lvl12, that was the cap by then.
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zachary
Posts: 68

Re: Guard Change

Post#29 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:07 am

> If my arguments are wrong, feel free to counter them.

Your arguments are wrong. Counter: From an initial non-ability-using state, it takes a single ability invocation to turn on guard. Likewise with stances, etc. To switch guard from one target to another takes two invocations - guard off, guard on. To switch stances takes one: new stance.

Also: Lag - both client and server - makes it painful to know what state you're in sometimes. Earlier today I swapped guard and Enemy only showed that I'd started the new guard... not that I'd stopped the previous one. So... which state do you think I was in? It would depend on where the failure was, so I didn't trust it, so I did the swap over again, slowly, and both messages came up. Luckily I was in a situation where I had that luxury - eg. not in the middle of a close fight.

Also: To do a fast-doubleclick to swap guard, you must already have your new guard target selected. At which point, are you seriously going to argue that clicking twice instead of once is a major feat of skill? The extra click wouldn't bother me, if it would always work; sadly lag and a number of factors make it unreliable. Making it a single click to select a new guard or remove it if no one (or self) is friendly targeted, would seem to be a fairly easy fix to this UI issue.
Xand*r*nius is still trying to Learn To Play

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Ototo
Posts: 1015

Re: Guard Change

Post#30 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:50 am

zachary wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:07 am
> If my arguments are wrong, feel free to counter them.

Your arguments are wrong. Counter: From an initial non-ability-using state, it takes a single ability invocation to turn on guard. Likewise with stances, etc. To switch guard from one target to another takes two invocations - guard off, guard on. To switch stances takes one: new stance.

Also: Lag - both client and server - makes it painful to know what state you're in sometimes. Earlier today I swapped guard and Enemy only showed that I'd started the new guard... not that I'd stopped the previous one. So... which state do you think I was in? It would depend on where the failure was, so I didn't trust it, so I did the swap over again, slowly, and both messages came up. Luckily I was in a situation where I had that luxury - eg. not in the middle of a close fight.

Also: To do a fast-doubleclick to swap guard, you must already have your new guard target selected. At which point, are you seriously going to argue that clicking twice instead of once is a major feat of skill? The extra click wouldn't bother me, if it would always work; sadly lag and a number of factors make it unreliable. Making it a single click to select a new guard or remove it if no one (or self) is friendly targeted, would seem to be a fairly easy fix to this UI issue.
And freaking again... clicking stance does nothing. What does something is the skill that you activate in the new stance. As I have said, this double clicking is spread along all the game: If target is X (hexed, cursed, etc...) then it will become Y, balance/plan mechanic that even require double clicking to snare, etc... I have named waaaaay too many examples so far, that have been ignored like if they don't exist. You like it or not, it was the way the game was designed.

I'm honestly done. If you gonna keep ignoring everything that I type, and persist to justify based in lag, THAT EVERY CLASS AND PLAYER WITH THE PRESSING OF EVERY SKILL HAS, then, you know, do it. It's a lie though, cause there's not more lag for tanks than for DPSs or healers.
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